19 April 2002

Transcript of State Department Noon Briefing

State Department Spokesman Richard Boucher briefed.

Following is the State Department transcript:

INDEX:

ISRAEL/PALESTINIANS -- Timeline for Israeli Withdrawal/Israeli Forces Pulled Out of Jenin -- Independent Investigation of What Happened at the Jenin Refugee Camp -- Encouraging International Humanitarian Access to Jenin/Ze'evi Assassins -- $30 Million to UN Relief and Works Agency to Help Palestinians -- Palestinian Demonstration Tomorrow -- UN Secretary General Annan's Call for a Middle East International Force -- Arab Resolution Calling for Third Party Presence in Palestinian Territories -- US View of Israel's Right to Hold and Prosecute People -- Secretary Powell's Meeting with Foreign Minister Peres -- Contact with Prime Minister Sharon and Chairman Arafat -- Status of People in Bethlehem Church/Oslo Accords PUBLIC DIPLOMACY -- US Relations with the Arab World TUNISIA -- Secretary Powell's Meeting with Tunisian Foreign Minister Ben Yahia -- Explosion Near Synagogue on the Island of Djerba/Reference to al-Qaida PAKISTAN -- Change of Judge in Trial of Accused Pearl Kidnapper UNITED KINGDOM -- Secretary Powell's Telephone Call with Foreign Secretary Straw CANADA -- Friendly Fire Accident in Afghanistan VENEZUELA -- Contacts Between the United States and the Government in Venezuela -- Organization of American States (OAS) Resolution on Events in Venezuela AFGHANISTAN -- Terrorists Remaining in Afghanistan/Training a National Army and National Police Force/Compensating Civilian Casualties from US Bombings MONTENEGRO -- Prime Minister Vujanovic's Resignation NORTH KOREA/RUSSIA -- Kim Jong Il's Plans to Visit Russia YUGOSLAVIA -- No New Yugoslav Certification/Publication of List of 23 Persons Indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY)

Mr. Boucher: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It's a pleasure to be here. I don't have any statements or announcements, so I would be glad to take your questions.

Mr. Schweid.

Question: I'd like to seek clarification, if I could put the question in a coherent way. There was reference by the Secretary, in fact, toward the end of the trip on getting a timeline for Israeli withdrawal. There were also other words about this weekend, and faster, and blah, blah, blah.

Is there some timeline that hasn't been disclosed that is more specific than what has been said publicly by Israel and by others?

Mr. Boucher: There is a timeline that the Israelis have discussed in public. I can't remember, frankly, if what they said to us in private about it was a little more specific than what they have said in public, mostly because I don't remember how much they have said in public. I would leave that to them to give specifics.

But we heard from the Israelis a firm commitment to end Israeli military operations and complete the Israeli withdrawal, and that is what we want to see continue. We heard from him in some specific terms how that would continue.

Now, I have to say it was clear in his discussion of it, in public and private, that the situations in Bethlehem and at the Palestinian Authority, Chairman Arafat's compound in Ramallah, were particular situations that need to be dealt with, and we are trying to deal with those as well.

Question: The Secretary has a fixed view of the pace and the schedule, let's say, of Israeli withdrawal --

Mr. Boucher: We heard from the Israelis, along the lines of what they have said in public, perhaps in somewhat more detail, some specifics about how they intended to continue their withdrawals and to complete their withdrawals from all areas except for Ramallah and Bethlehem, from all parts of Zone A, of Area A, except for those two places.

Question: Let me try one other thing. Is Ramallah a two-piece situation; in other words, there's headquarters and there's Ramallah? Are you expecting a withdrawal from Ramallah without withdrawal from the headquarters sooner rather than later?

Mr. Boucher: The Israelis made clear that their key concern at Ramallah at this point was over the headquarters area. To what extent they can pull out of the rest of the town and still maintain what they feel they need to maintain there, we will have to see. But what is clear is that there is a particular situation in Ramallah with Chairman Arafat's headquarters that needs to be resolved, and we and others are trying to do that. It is a difficult situation. We do want to try to resolve it as soon as possible so that this withdrawal from Area A could be complete, because that remains the most important goal that we have is in seeing that, and then getting on with the security cooperation, getting on with the further steps, getting on with the further instructions and steps that need to be taken to stop violence.

Question: This morning, Ari Fleischer made mention that the President supports an independent investigation of what happened at the Jenin refugee camp. Can you flesh that out a little bit for us? What does that mean? Is there a US role? Does it involve the UN?

Mr. Boucher: That is exactly -- no, I can't flesh it out, is the simple point. This has been discussed. We, during our visit -- Secretary Powell, during his visit -- pressed very strongly for international humanitarian access to Jenin, and indeed the Israelis have allowed the Red Cross and some of the Palestinian medical personnel to go in with their troops initially and now are allowing, I think, some other humanitarian access. But we have encouraged open humanitarian access to the areas there, both because there are these reports of people being killed -- that situation needs to be dealt with -- but also, the people there continue to suffer hardships. So we have encouraged that kind of access.

Now, as far as investigation goes, I don't think it is decided at this point. Ari referred this morning to transparency. Clearly, access and transparency are the first concerns. As far as investigation goes, I don't think there is anything particularly decided as to who would do it or what might -- what exactly might take place.

Question: If I could follow up briefly, yesterday President Bush talked about one of the reasons why the Israelis are there is because of the Ze'evi assassins are suspected to be there. Palestinians say some of these men were escorted there by US and Israeli officials, and I wonder if you have any comment on that and whether you think these men should be tried by Palestinians or by the Israelis.

Mr. Boucher: They were not escorted there by American or Israeli officials, but we did make some phone calls as the Palestinians were transporting them there to make sure that they had the cooperation of the Israeli authorities, which they did have, in moving these men through checkpoints and to custody at the compound in Ramallah, where they needed to be when the Palestinians took them into custody. But we made some phone calls to ensure that process went smoothly and with the cooperation of the Israeli authorities, which, as I said, they did get.

The President spoke about the understanding -- we understand that Israel wants to get them in custody. We also understand the Palestinians have them in custody, and under the Oslo Accords, should detain and prosecute them. That's what makes the situation difficult. It needs to be worked out. As the Secretary said in his press conference in Jerusalem, it needs to be worked out peacefully. That's where our emphasis is and that's where our involvement is.

Question: Do you plan to share opinions about where they should be prosecuted -- the Palestinians?

Mr. Boucher: No, I don't think we've changed our opinions at all on this, but there are firm -- how can I say it? -- beliefs on both sides about where this should happen, and our interest is in trying to see this worked out, trying to see the completion of the withdrawal, trying to see the beginning of security steps. We realize that working out this issue so that these people are brought to justice, as the President said, that remains our interest in seeing that done peacefully.

Question: To go back to the investigation, you said I don't think anything's been decided, but the question really is what you think that should happen, not what's being decided. What do you favor in the way of investigation into this?

Mr. Boucher: We favor access by humanitarian groups. We face transparency of the situation there. Those are the things that we advocated and urged as we worked in the region. And as far as the particulars of any specific investigation, I don't have a position for you yet.

Question: Richard, most of the Arab and Muslims were criticized earlier when the war started, or when the attacks started on the Palestinians, US and Israel both were criticized, including even Pakistan's Musharraf also criticized the United States.

Now, relations as far as US and Arab and Muslim relations are concerned today, and since the Prince Abdullah is coming next week to meet with President Bush, so where do they stand today, and what is the future, because the oil or the economy is at stake?

Mr. Boucher: Without getting into oil, let's deal with the question that you asked about US relations with the Arab world. The United States is making a tremendous effort in this case. The Secretary went out; he achieved some progress. He achieved enough progress that we are no longer facing the situation of widespread war. He achieved the progress in terms of we now know a more definitive Israeli timetable for withdrawal. He achieved progress in terms of having a formula for going forward to get back to security for both sides. He has achieved progress in having the various ideas and commitment out there to go forward on the political track. He has achieved progress in terms of enlisting international support in Madrid, but also in his meetings with the Arab world.

What we keep hearing from people now is they want us to make sure that that progress continues. They want us to make sure that those -- that that pathway is taken by the parties and followed. That is why we have left Ambassador Burns there; that is why we are bringing General Zinni back; that is why we will consider -- should circumstances permit or warrant -- sending Director Tenet back. We have not only the pathway forward, but we have ways of working to make sure we go down that path.

So what we are hearing from friends in the Arab world is they want to see the US commitment sustained, and we can tell them the US commitment is there; it will be sustained. We will continue to meet with and work with our friends in the Arab world; we will continue to work with the Israelis; we will continue to meet with the Palestinian Authority and its leadership, Chairman Arafat, to try to move forward down this path that we laid out.

The Secretary met this morning with Tunisian Foreign Minister Ben Yahia. The White House has announced that the President will meet next week with the King of Morocco. He will meet next week with Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. So we keep in very close touch with Arab partners, as well as European and international partners, to try to make sure that this pathway that we worked out with the parties, this pathway that we worked out to get out of the current situation, to try to make sure that that is followed.

Question: Can you give any details on the meeting with Tunisian Foreign Minister?

Mr. Boucher: Yes, some details. They talked about, as you know, the situation in the region, as we say, the situation between the Israelis and Palestinians. The Secretary made clear that we would stay involved. He made clear that our commitment was to see this through and try to bring both parties to a better situation where their people can live with a sense of security, where there can have hope for the future, and where they can have a chance for prosperity.

Tunisia is a very close friend. It is a supporter of our efforts to promote regional peace and stability, to end the violence between Israelis and Palestinians, and to resume political dialogue that realizes the vision of a state of Palestine and a state of Israel living side by side in peace and prosperity.

They also took the opportunity to review a number of regional and bilateral issues, including, as I said, the general situation, a little bit about the fight against terrorism and the need to work together and cooperate on that. Tunisia has been a strong supporter of our campaign against terrorism.

The Secretary also discussed with him the Djerba incident, the explosion near the synagogue on the Island of Djerba. Foreign Minister Ben Yahia brought him up to date on the situation, indicated that they were conducting a thorough investigation of this incident, they were looking at all the possibilities, and they were working with the German authorities as well for whatever information and cooperation they could get from that front, working together to come to grips with this situation and understand what happened, and make sure that appropriate steps are taken to maintain security on this very important area.

Ben.

Question: I just want to follow up one thing on the previous question that was asked. You mentioned about US relations with the Arab world, and you mentioned in particular US friends and governments in the region. But what about the people that they call "the street", the "Arab street" -- these people that are out there demonstrating against the United States for supporting Israel? Do you have any message to those people?

Mr. Boucher: I think the message to the people on the street is the same as the message to the governments, and that is that the United States does care deeply about the situation. The United States, more than any government, has been heavily involved in practical ways to try to see that Israelis and Palestinians get back their lives, that they can get normal lives without fear, that they can get hope for the future, a stable future based on a political settlement, so that -- to provide assistance and have a chance for economic prosperity.

The Secretary last week announced $30 million to the UN Relief and Works Agency to try to help Palestinians recover from the difficulties that have recently been caused. There is a donors conference in Oslo this week that the United States will be attending. So the United States is involved, will remain involved. We have chartered a course forward. We want the parties to follow that course -- withdrawal, cease-fire, end to violence; real, clear steps on the part of Chairman Arafat to stop the violence -- and then moving down a political path. All this has to be done, must be done, and the United States will be there to make sure that we proceed down that path.

Question: Can I just get a quick one?

Mr. Boucher: Yes.

Question: On the synagogue bombing, was there any reference to al-Qaida? And on the Palestinian demonstration tomorrow, will any State Department people join the demonstration that you're aware of? Of course, what a person does on his own I guess he does on his own, but is there going to be a State Department -- there was a -- you know, there was a Defense Department representation on the pro-Israel demonstration. Plausibly enough, I guess --

Mr. Boucher: I don't know what demonstration there is tomorrow, but I'm not aware that we're sending any representatives to the demonstrations over the weekend.

Question: Well, I mean, you're sympathetic --

Mr. Boucher: Barry, we are -- if there's a demonstration in support of peace in the Middle East, we'll make that demonstration here to you now --

Question: Well, you had someone from Defense go to a pro-Israel demonstration. It's not --

Mr. Boucher: All right. I think we adequately demonstrated our interest in peace in the Middle East by sending the Secretary of State on a trip to the region. We don't have to demonstrate any more. But we will continue to be involved. We will continue to put forward.

As far as the first part of your question, was there a reference to al-Qaida, I'm not sure. As far as I know, I don't remember any reference. There is a group out there that has claimed it, a group that is said to have been associated with al-Qaida. At this point, the Tunisians are investigating. As I said, they are looking at all the possibilities and they are coordinating with the German government. But they are still investigating now.

Joel.

Question: With respect to the Pearl trial in Pakistan, the judge has been removed three days prior to the trial. Under those circumstances, does the United States want to move that venue to the United States courts?

Mr. Boucher: Well, we understand that Judge Arshad Noor Khan has been taken off the Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh case because he heard statements from the accused in a February court appearance and can therefore be considered a witness, according to the defense. Pakistan and the United States agree that justice must be done in this case. We will work together to make sure that objective is achieved. There has been excellent cooperation thus far between our law enforcement agencies.

We understand the trial will go forward on Monday as scheduled. US law enforcement officials will continue to assist Pakistani prosecutors as appropriate. So they do intend to go forward with this trial without any particular delay. It was a technical reason for the change, and they appear to be prepared to go forward. We have always supported justice -- that justice be done.

Question: So the US is not demanding any more the extradition of the killer --

Mr. Boucher: No, we have always said we want him in our jurisdiction, but as these things have gone forward, we have to figure out who is going to try him first and what the sequencing might be. So in this case, the Pakistanis are trying him first.

Question: Can we go back to the Middle East, please? I've been trying for several days to get somebody to say something about Kofi Annan's proposal for an armed force for the Middle East. What do you think of that? And alternatively, what do you think of the Arab resolution which calls for a third party presence in the Palestinian territories? And could you also say whether Foreign Secretary Straw spoke to the Secretary today about a UN resolution?

Mr. Boucher: Foreign Secretary Straw did speak to the Secretary this morning. I don't have the full details of what they talked about, but since they normally talk about sort of whatever's going on in the course of the day, I would expect that they did talk about a UN resolution, since that remains under discussion in New York.

I think we have made quite clear that we don't think the action is in New York right now; we think the action ought to be in the region with the parties, with completing withdrawal, achieving steps against terrorism, and getting back to security cooperation. So that remains our emphasis, and we don't think new action is necessary in New York.

Along the lines of your original question, in Madrid, with the other members of the Quartet, the Madrid Quartet, we supported the idea of a third party monitoring mechanism; that is the same idea that we have discussed previously with the G-8 -- the President, at the leaders level, in Genoa last year, as well as the Ministers level. So that remains on the table.

What we have discussed with the parties, and what you will see in the Madrid statement, is that whatever mechanism is chosen has to be acceptable to the parties. What we know at this point is that the idea of some American monitoring to help with the implementation of these steps as we go forward is acceptable to the parties, and that is an idea that we continue to discuss and work with them. But as we said in the Madrid Quartet statement, you will see whatever is done in terms of third party mechanisms have to be acceptable to parties. As far as what we know, the only thing that we think is acceptable to both parties at this stage is the idea of American monitors.

Question: Can I just follow up on that? So can you put it this way, as long as the Israelis object to an armed international presence, then you would -- you also would see it as not feasible? Is that --

Mr. Boucher: Again, you have the four -- the EU, the UN, the United States, and Russia -- getting together in Madrid a week ago, all of whom said that whatever third party mechanism is developed needs to be acceptable to the parties. That remains the position the international community has taken repeatedly, including the G-8 at Genoa last year. That is the position that we believe is both political and practical, and for that reason we are prepared to go forward with the third party mechanism that the parties do accept as soon as it is possible to start these steps so that we can make some effective difference on the ground that way.

Question: Nothing changed, has it? That it would be a small group that will be --

Mr. Boucher: Nothing has changed.

Question: Okay.

Mr. Boucher: The Secretary described it repeatedly during his trip.

Question: As described.

Mr. Boucher: So that as described, yes.

Question: New topic?

Question: No, still on Middle East. Yesterday the Secretary called for the Israeli withdrawal to be accelerated and called it a difficulty facing the process. Is that still the State Department position today?

Mr. Boucher: Yes. We want to see it accelerated. I mean, accelerated, yes. They pulled out of Jenin overnight. That's welcome; that's a good thing. We want to see it continue; we want to see it completed. We've always made that clear that's the US position, because we do want to get back to security cooperation. We do want to see Chairman Arafat issue the orders and instructions to get his people out of the involvement with violence. And we do want to see progress down the political front as well. So yes, we want to see it continue and complete, is what we say at this point.

Question: Accelerated beyond the timetable that they have presented? Or is that adequate?

Mr. Boucher: We want to just stick to the timeline that they have laid out. We want to see -- as the President noted, they have so far been sticking to the timeline that they've been laying out. But we do want to see it continue, we want to see it completed. That's the best characterization at this stage, just giving exactly where we are and the kind of timeline they laid out.

Question: The Israelis have detained hundreds -- thousands, actually, of people during this action, whatever -- incursion. What is the US view about Israel's right to hold and possibly prosecute these people?

Mr. Boucher: I think, first of all, you have to check with the Israelis to what their intentions are. I think if you look at the kinds of numbers -- we didn't get any -- I don't remember any from the end of our trip, but at the beginning of the trip they were able to describe how many they detained, how many they had released, which was thousands also. And the numbers that remained in their custody, to the extent that they have evidence and need to press charges, I suppose we expect them to do that. But as far as what they intend to do, you will have to check with them.

Question: Could you give us any specifics on the agenda of the Secretary's meeting this afternoon with Mr. Peres? Is the idea of a regional conference still something that's going to be worked on?

Mr. Boucher: I think I would expect them both to just want to discuss all the various ideas that have been put forward during the course of the trip, and I'm sure they will talk about the situation on the ground, the status of withdrawals, steps that are needed by the Palestinian leadership to end terror, how to make progress on the political track, and that's where this idea of some kind of conference of international players comes together.

So, yes, I would expect him to talk about all those things. The Secretary will make clear our concerns about Jenin, urge the Israeli Government to allow full access -- I think the humanitarian considerations are very much up front in his mind -- full access and facilitate the urgent delivery of humanitarian goods and services.

We always look forward to an opportunity to consult with the Foreign Minister of Israel, and we would expect them both to come down to C Street at the end of the meeting. So at that point you may have the opportunity to ask them together what they talked about.

Question: Well, who invited -- I mean, did he invite himself, or did you invite him?

Mr. Boucher: He was going to be in town, and I think we both wanted to see each other. He is coming to make a speech in town, I think.

Question: Maybe you mentioned this yesterday when some of us couldn't drag ourselves in, but did the Secretary --

Mr. Boucher: No, I didn't drag myself in yesterday either, Charlie.

Question: Okay. Has the Secretary spoken to either Prime Minister Sharon or Chairman Arafat since he left?

Mr. Boucher: Not since he left the region, no. Ambassador Burns is in the region. The Secretary has talked to him a couple of times, and he has been keeping in touch with us through his people as well.

Question: Richard, you discussed in terms -- you went into detail on the Ramallah situation and the Ze'evi Five, as they're called. What's your view of the status of the people in Bethlehem in the church? And do you take a similar view? Do you think that these people -- do you think Israel has any jurisdiction over these people?

Mr. Boucher: Once again, without knowing -- I think in Bethlehem, the issue is that these people are in the church. There are people in the church that Israel wants. For reasons of their association with terrorism, I don't think we have a complete list or are able to specify exactly what charges Israel might want them for. Of the maybe 200 people in the church, that probably applies to less than 20.

But that situation does need to be resolved. That is something we are -- I think as you know from the remarks of the various parties, there is a general idea about how it might be resolved, either in terms of allowing them to face trial in Israel or go to some other country. That issue, though, is still being worked. We haven't brought all the pieces together yet to make this -- to resolve that situation. That remains a situation that we hope to resolve and would want to resolve because it is important, both for the sanctity of the site, but also for the completion of withdrawal, that we can resolve that situation as well.

Question: Just one other question, on this basis -- under Oslo, each side is supposed to arrest people and prosecute them for crimes against the other side. Are you saying that the Israelis now, because of the failure of the Palestinians to do this, that the Israelis have a right now to transcend or supersede the Oslo Accords, go in and arrest people, and then try them for crimes that they have not been punished for?

Mr. Boucher: I don't want to try to reinterpret Oslo in any way. Oslo is clear on these matters, but I think you need to read it carefully. How it applies to particular situations I'm sure there will be disputes over, but the fact is we do have particular situations now that we have to deal with. As I said, particularly with regard to the situation at the Mukata'a, the Israelis want these people because they killed an Israeli minister. The Palestinians want to keep their jurisdiction because under Oslo they believe they have the right to exercise jurisdiction and to prosecute and try people who commit crimes.

So we recognize that, and we understand the arguments from both sides, as the President said when he was asked about the Israeli side. We understand the arguments from the Palestinian side as well. The issue is how to resolve it, since the particular situation needs to be resolved, because it is tense; it involves a key place, and it involves a key element in the overall withdrawal. We want to see that withdrawal completed. We want to see the steps against terrorism taken and security cooperation to start and get down that political track. We are going to be involved in this situation, as we are going to be involved in the whole thing.

Question: Can you tell me about the diplomatic fallout from the friendly fire incident with the Canadian soldiers in Kandahar and what the State Department is doing to reassure the Canadians and our other allies about that situation?

Mr. Boucher: I'm not sure I'd talk very much about the diplomatic fallout. We are in very close touch with the Canadians on all kinds of levels, our Embassy out there. But also, as you know, as soon as we found out about this, the President called Prime Minister Chretien to offer our apologies, to express our condolences and our sympathy to the families of the people who were killed, to try to explain as much as we knew, to say that we would investigate.

The Canadians are very close friends and partners in these areas. These incidents are very regrettable. We are, I think, trying to make sure that we keep in very close touch at all kinds of levels with them. I'm not aware that the Secretary has made any particular phone calls himself, but we -- clearly our Embassy is in close touch with the Canadian Government as well.

Question: Is the Ambassador working closely with him, and is there any new information on that as of today?

Mr. Boucher: I wouldn't have any information on the incident. That would be at the Defense Department.

Question: I understand that, but what I'm saying is, do we have any other diplomatic relations or anything that has happened today?

Mr. Boucher: No, I have nothing new today for you. I'm sure our Embassy up there is working it, but I don't really have any news.

Question: Venezuela. Have there been any contacts with the government in Caracas since President Chavez returned to power on Sunday? And several US officials have spoken over the past days about -- have urged the president and his government to implement reforms, democratic reforms. Is the United States planning to offer any help with that?

Mr. Boucher: Well, many so-called US officials might have spoken, but let me remind you the Secretary of State, the nec plus ultra of US officials, on the record spoke about it yesterday, about the need to continue to support reform, the need to continue an open dialogue with the Venezuelan people, and to respect all elements of society. This is something we would like to see any Venezuelan government do, and with President Chavez's return we would certainly like to see him carry out that under the Venezuelan Government.

We have looked to the OAS to carry us forward on that. I believe if you look at the OAS resolution that was passed during the night, the OAS offered to be part of that process of national reconciliation. We would look to the Venezuelan Government to take steps to encourage national reconciliation. There will be a visit of the Inter-American Commission of Human Rights to Venezuela next month, so we and other OAS member states I think intend to remain engaged. We look forward to a report to the Foreign Ministers at the June 2 OAS General Assembly in Barbados. So I'm sure the OAS will be leading us in that regard.

Question: -- between the two of --

Mr. Boucher: I don't know of particular contacts between the United States, the Embassy for example, and the government in Venezuela. But I can check on that and see if we've had anything.

Question: The people of Afghanistan are asking that the United States, when they started the war against terrorism, they promised to them that there will be a terrorism/terrorist-free Afghanistan. The Taliban government may have gone, but the terrorists, Taliban or al-Qaida, are still in Afghanistan. The King is now there. Yesterday, he returned from Italy. So how the new government, when they have a new administration in June, or after June, how can they operate when Afghanistan is still full of terrorism?

Mr. Boucher: First of all, US troops have not left Afghanistan. US and other governments, other countries have forces there. The British, as you know, are undertaking operations against al-Qaida remnants. The United States has done so. The Canadians are out there working with all of us. So there is a considerable international presence. At one point, including the International Security Assistance Forces, we counted something like 17 countries that had forces in Afghanistan trying to help not only get rid of the final remnants of this organization of al-Qaida and the Taliban, but also through the International Security Assistance process to maintain forces there to provide a certain sense of stability.

In addition, the chief way that we have been working with this government and will work a new government created under the Loya Jirga is to help train a national army and national police force, because ultimately that is the way to maintain stability in Afghanistan; that's the process that is already under way that we are working and training a national army. The Germans have an extensive support network there to train a national police. We are all working together with other members of the donor community to fund that and to move forward on those two tracks. That is the principal way that we have worked with the government in Afghanistan to maintain security over the longer term.

Question: I have been talking with a lot of Afghanis in this area, a lot of them, and what they are saying is that whatever the US is doing, but they are very much grateful to the United States and the international community that they have helped them to get this Taliban government out of Afghanistan. But the borders are so open that they have come across the border today, and then tomorrow they will leave and still they will come back. So they keep coming and going from across the border. So how can you start that until you stop --

Mr. Boucher: We work as well with countries in the region, with countries that border on Afghanistan and other countries in the region to try to ensure that we are all doing our part to maintain security and that we get rid of these Taliban elements, these al-Qaida elements who might try to regroup, or might try to regroup either on the Afghan side or other sides of the border. I would point out once again that the cooperation with Pakistan in particular in this regard has been excellent.

Question: Back to Venezuela. Yesterday, Mr. Powell proposed to Mr. Gaviria to facilitate the dialogue in Venezuela. But do you know if Venezuela just supports this proposal from the United States Government? And as far as I know, and Mr. Gaviria refused any role, because he is a Colombian citizen. Do you have any comment about that?

Mr. Boucher: First of all, I'm not going to speak for the Government of Venezuela. I'm not going to try to say whether they support it. The OAS passed a resolution at about 1 o'clock in the morning or almost 1 o'clock in the morning last night. I'm not sure if the Government of Venezuela has had a chance to respond yet. But in that resolution, we called on the Venezuelan Government to respect the essential elements of representative democracy. We have called on them to take immediate steps towards national reconciliation, and we look to the OAS Permanent Council to be closely involved, follow events there and to follow through on this.

So, as I said just a moment ago, we look to the OAS to play the role of trying to help the Venezuelans with national reconciliation. We hope that they -- as we hope they would adopt that policy, and then we will hear where they are in a couple months at the June 2nd OAS General Assembly in Barbados.

What the reaction is of the Venezuelan Government to that I will leave to the Venezuelan Government.

Question: And what about Secretary Gaviria?

Mr. Boucher: Again, as I said, the OAS in its resolution looked to the Permanent Council to take that over, and whether the Secretary General decides to go down on their behalf again, I don't know. He has already come back and reported from one trip that he has made. But the OAS Permanent Council will keep its eye on the situation down there and prepare further reports as necessary.

Question: I'm going to jump around and go back to Afghanistan briefly. Some members of Congress are about to -- are trying to get a bill passed to have the United States compensate civilian casualties from the US bombings in Afghanistan. I wondered if there's -- if the US has done any survey of the extent of civilian casualties, and if our Embassy in Kabul has been receiving petitions from families.

Mr. Boucher: The simple answer is I don't know. I will have to check on it. I hadn't heard about the legislation nor any particular petitions for money.

Question: The Montenegrin Premier Philip Vujanovic has tendered his resignation, has decided to shelve independence plans. Is this going to further destabilize the Yugoslavian region?

Mr. Boucher: I don't think I'd make any speculation based on that. It's an internal political development. We will leave it to them to sort out in democratic principles.

Question: Kim Jong Il is, according to the Russians, planning a new visit to the far east of Russia in the next months. Is this something that the United States welcomes, though the Secretary last year said that he believed that Russia could play a useful role in bringing North Korea --

Mr. Boucher: I didn't see the report, nor can I announce a visit for the North Koreans. But I would just say in general terms we have always supported their exposure to the outside world. We have always supported the idea of their becoming more involved with the outside world and learning from the outside world. So to the extent that they do that, we think that's by and large a good thing, and as the Secretary said last year, we will continue to say that Russia has an important role to play in encouraging this kind of outreach and encouraging North Korea to work with the South and North Korea to work with members of the international community.

Question: Have you decided yet whether to contact the North Koreans in New York and ask them what the -- whether they really are interested in dialogue after their comments to the South Koreans?

Mr. Boucher: I don't know exactly where we stand. I don't think we have anything new on contacts at this point.

Question: Yugoslav certification?

Mr. Boucher: No new Yugoslav certification. There was I think a statement in Yugoslavia. They published a list of 23 persons indicted by the International Tribunal, a further sign that the authorities do recognize their obligation to improve cooperation with the International Criminal Tribunal for Former Yugoslavia. The next necessary step is for the Yugoslav Government to take those indicted into custody and transfer them to The Hague as soon as possible. All persons indicted for war crimes, including Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic must answer the charges against them.

So we will continue to urge the authorities in Yugoslavia go fulfill their responsibility for full cooperation with the Tribunal, including transfer of any future indictees requested by the Tribunal. At this point, though, the Secretary has made no decision with regard to certification.

Question: But would the indictment -- would the arrest and transfer of these people clear the way for certification?

Mr. Boucher: That's what we call a hypothetical "would the" question. But in any case, I think we have always said that we will base our certification judgments on the facts. The transfer of indictees to the Tribunal is a very significant sign of cooperation, and those kinds of facts would certainly be taken into account.

Question: You don't have a minimum requirement?

Mr. Boucher: No.

Question: Thank you.

Mr. Boucher: Okay.

(The briefing was concluded at 1:27 p.m. EDT.)