*EPF409 08/01/2002
Transcript: Human Rights, Anti-Terrorism Efforts Not at Odds
(Powell interview with Far Eastern Economic Review July 29) (4700)

Tougher anti-terrorism efforts are not at odds with the promotion of human rights and democracy, says U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell.

During a July 29 interview in Bangkok with the Far Eastern Economic Review, Powell said: "The United States will not step back from its strong commitment to human rights and to encourage all of our friends to practice the highest standards of human rights behavior. It's part of our value system and frankly it's a matter of our law as well."

He emphasized, however, that terrorism is a threat to every country in the world.

"We need to link our law enforcement efforts and our intelligence efforts and our response efforts," Powell said, "and I think the United States has the leadership role to play. We saw it most vividly in the Philippines when we provided military support to the Philippine Armed Forces."

Indonesia and the United States, he said, are now working together in "a very very positive way" to deal with the threat of terrorism. He said the United States is urging Indonesia's leadership to deal with terrorist threats "in a way that does not alienate the population and does not violate basic standards of human rights."

On China and Taiwan, the Secretary said the Bush administration continues to be firmly committed to the "One China" policy as well as the Taiwan Relations Act.

"Even though we may undertake arms sales to Taiwan from time to time, those arms sales are for the purpose of making sure that the Taiwanese are able to defend themselves and are in no way an attempt to move away from our One China policy. We're absolutely firm on this and there's no disagreement anywhere within the Administration," the Secretary said.

Regarding the possible rise of China as a major economic power in Asia, Powell said: "It is going to be a fascinating development to watch, as China is now in the WTO and demonstrating great skill in the international marketplace and with a population that is skilled and hardworking."

Powell predicted that China will become a major competitor as well as a major market. It remains to be seen how other nations will respond to this challenge, he said.

On India and Pakistan, the Secretary said the United States enjoys a strong partnership with both nations. He said that during his recent visit to both countries, he reinforced the fact that the United States sees each as "a strong partner, and not in the hyphenated sense." Powell expressed the Bush administration's hope that it can create conditions for a dialogue to resolve the tensions over Kashmir.

In Afghanistan, Powell said a lot has been accomplished in the seven months since the interim administration was set in place. Food is being delivered, security has improved, and there is now hope for the people.

The United States and the international community are looking to put additional manpower in Kabul to help better coordinate the relief effort, the Secretary said. The relief would reach the people through the central Afghan government, which is now is the institution with which the international community will work, he said.

Following is a transcript of the interview, as released by the Department of State August 1:

(begin transcript)

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman
August 1, 2002

INTERVIEW

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell's
Interview with Far Eastern Economic Review

July 29,2002
Bangkok, Thailand

QUESTION: Thank you very much for the opportunity, it's a great pleasure for us, a great honor. Given your trip to India and Pakistan, I just want to ask you a few questions there and then we'll go across a range of issues in the region.

At present given what's at stake in South Asia, should the U.S. in fact get involved? Should the U.S. be more engaged in resolving the conflict in Kashmir? What role do you see the U.S. playing there?

SECRETARY POWELL: The conflict with Kashmir has gone on for 55 years now and ultimately it will have to be resolved by the two parties dealing with each other directly. I think the United States will play a very helpful role in creating conditions where the two sides will talk to one another in a serious way about Kashmir, and the reason we should be able to play that role is that in recent years, especially in the last 19 months since the Bush Administration came in, then building on that had been done by the Clinton Administration, we have developed a strong bilateral relationship with both India and Pakistan.

In fact in my recent visit to both countries I reinforced the fact that we see each of them as a strong partner and not in the hyphenated sense. We don't always deal with one because there's a problem with the other. I think we've persuaded them that it is a zero sum. Because we do something for Pakistan it doesn't mean we take something away from India and vice versa.

And because we enjoy that strong partnership and relationship with both Pakistan and India, then I think we can be helpful in ultimately getting a dialogue going between the two sides on Kashmir. Our focus, of course, in recent months has been to make sure that no war breaks out across the international border because of the infiltrations that are taking place across the line of control. And I think we've been reasonably successful in doing that even though there's still tension, we don't seem to be on the edge of war, as we were a month or two ago.

QUESTION: Have you tried to encourage both sides to allow the U.S. to play the bigger role?

SECRETARY POWELL: I think both sides are willing to have the U.S. play a role. It's important though for the U.S. not to try to insert itself as the negotiator or the intermediary or broker. There's a long history of failure in trying to do that. But I think we can play a role because both sides look to us as a superpower friend who can play a role in creating conditions where a dialogue between the two sides can take place.

QUESTION: Now looking at this sort of darker scenario you refer to as conflict between the two countries and the awful prospect of the nuclear exchange between the two countries, does the U.S. know where the nuclear assets of both countries are, if things went to the brink and there were a fear of nuclear exchange this year. Is the U.S. prepared to take out the assets, nuclear assets of Pakistan?

SECRETARY POWELL: Oh, I wouldn't get into those kinds of intelligence or operational matters. Let's just say that when two nations are armed with nuclear weapons and they start down the road toward war, this is the time for the international community to get involved, and we did in spades. And it's been a major, major priority for me and for President Bush and his Administration to keep them from getting any closer. I think we've succeeded in stopping the momentum that was building and now we're slowly moving them back in the other direction. It's going to take a little bit more time. President Musharraf says he's committed to ending and has ended all cross border infiltration. The Indians don't see that happening yet. We can't confirm it yet.

QUESTION: What about the U.S. intelligence on that?

SECRETARY POWELL: Our best information as of today, late July let's say, is that there has been a reduction in cross border infiltration, but I cannot say with any confidence at this point that it's all been stopped.

QUESTION: Briefly on Afghanistan, the degree of frustration among some people in Afghanistan about the speed of the arrival of international aid, what do you think needs to be done, what is the US willing to do to speed the process of delivering the funds that were pledged to Tokyo earlier this year.

SECRETARY POWELL: We are meeting with all of our friends who were at Tokyo and made a pledge to something called the Afghan Reconstruction Support Group and we met with them I think it was two weeks ago in Paris or London or maybe Geneva, and encouraged all of them to make good on their pledges as rapidly as possible. Each nation that pledged though has its own parliamentary or legislative process to go through in order to get the funds to match their commitment. Some of them are giving direct assistance in the form of money; others their assistance takes the form of donated goods or projects to be completed in Afghanistan. So there's a natural time lag before those start to arrive.

I think we should take credit though for how much has happened in Afghanistan in the last roughly 7 months since the interim administration went in. There is now hope for the people of Afghanistan, food is being delivered, the security situation isn't to our satisfaction yet but it has improved significantly. So while there's a long way to go and much much more work to be done, I think we should be very proud of the way in which the international community has responded to this crisis.

We are also looking at putting additional manpower into Kabul, United States and international community manpower to help coordinate the relief effort better and also to make sure that all Afghans understand that the relief that is coming in will come through the central government where the response to priorities are set by the central government, so that they can see that the central government now is the institution with which the international community will work and that they should look to and not to the warlords.

QUESTION: On Southeast Asia, the war against terrorism has altered the political calculus a bit in Southeast Asia, and has brought the U.S. closer to countries such as Malaysia, the Philippines in that regard. It's also exposed a degree of difference between the U.S. and countries such as Indonesia. Do you think the U.S. is at risk of forfeiting its leadership role in the battle of human rights and promoting democracy in places such as Indonesia and try to balance the interest in the war on terror against human rights?

SECRETARY POWELL: No, not at all. The United States will not step back from its strong commitment to human rights and to encourage all of our friends to practice the highest standards of human rights behavior. It's part of our value system and frankly it's a matter of our law as well.

But I think we have demonstrated to all the nations in Southeast Asia that terror is a threat to all of us. It may come in the form of Al Qaeda, and learning more and more about Al Qaeda and how they are in so many of these countries or they're trying to get themselves imbedded in these countries having been displaced in Afghanistan. And there are many other terrorist groups, Abu Saayef in the Philippines. It is not something that is unique to America. What is common in all these terrorist organizations is the need for the entire international community to respond. We need to link our law enforcement efforts and our intelligence efforts and our response efforts and I think the United States has the leadership role to play. We saw it most vividly in the Philippines when we provided military support to the Philippine Armed Forces.

With respect to Indonesia, I think they are now working with us in a very very positive way to deal with this kind of threat. Initially, right after 9/11, the Indonesians, the largest Muslim nation in the world, had to step carefully, but I think increasingly they understand the danger in terrorism and are working with us in a very very effective way. Now, we also say to our Indonesian friends that we understand that you have challenges in your own country such as Aceh and that you have to deal with these challenges. But you have to make sure that you do it in a way that does not alienate the population and does not violate basic standards of human rights.

QUESTION: In fact, I want to address that issue of Aceh. In your trip to Indonesia, there have been some moves to improve military ties to Indonesia, that needless to say is of some concern given the past human rights records of the military. What is the message you'll be carrying to Megawati?

SECRETARY POWELL: I will say to Mrs. Megawati and to others, we do want a good relationship with the Indonesians in all categories, to include military to military, but our Congress demands that when we engage in these kinds of exchanges, especially military, we have to do it in a way that is consistent with our value system.

I think we also at the same time have to be careful just because we might have a problem with a particular country, when we cut them off from certain kinds of military to military cooperation, such as international military educational training funding which brings their officers to United States schools where they can learn about the way in which a military force should operate within a democratic system. Does that serve our long-term interest to cut them off from that kind of exposure? I will be discussing this with Mrs. Megawati and others. We're reviewing our programs now to see what is appropriate to restart.

QUESTION: On China, the Chinese have expressed some concern about what they perceive to be mixed signals on the question of Taiwan. Can you tell me what the State Department's view on Taiwan is?

SECRETARY POWELL: With respect to Taiwan, there's only one Administration view and we all express it in pretty much the same way. We support our One China policy and the associated aspects to it, the three communiqu�� and the Taiwan Relations Act. Our One China policy, the three communiqu�� but also the Taiwan Relations Act, which is the U.S. law that guides the manner in which we do provide military support to Taiwan.

The Chinese Government is constantly asking us about this and seeking reassurance, and we have made it clear to them that even though we may undertake arms sales to Taiwan from time to time, those arms sales are for the purpose of making sure that the Taiwanese are able to defend themselves and are in no way an attempt to move away from our One China policy. We're absolutely firm on this and there's no disagreement anywhere within the Administration.

QUESTION: Some would argue that the Defense Department has sent a somewhat different message.

SECRETARY POWELL: Not with respect to our One China policy. Now you can have debates in any government about what you need - our arms sale policy in particular. And we're forever reviewing what the nature of the threat is directed toward Taiwan that should be of concern to us. And one has to have a continuing discussion about where China is going as a nation. It's accumulating great wealth and we hope to they'll use that wealth in the right manner, which will help the local Chinese people enjoy a better life.

And we hope that China will, as it modernizes its military force, if it modernizes its military force, which we shouldn't be surprised if a nation should do that, in no changes the nature of that nature of that force in a way that suggests that it's undertaking offensive capability or developing offensive capabilities that will threaten Taiwan or would threaten the region. And so this is why it's important for us to have good relations with China, military-to-military exchanges with China, so we can get into each other's thinking and why we stay so engaged with China.

QUESTION: You met with Hu Jintao on his trip to Washington. For those of us in the press, of course, it is very difficult to find out information about him, what he's like, can you tell me just in your meeting with him, what was your assessment of him?

SECRETARY POWELL: We had a good meeting. I met him in Beijing when the President was in Beijing last year and then met him again when he came to Washington and hosted a lunch for him at the State Department, and I found him to be a very engaging interlocutor. We spent a little bit of our time together talking about New York City. He had just come from New York, where he had paid his respects down at the World Trade Center. I told him the next time he comes to New York, I want to be there to take him to the shows, so he can have a hot dog on the corner, and so I can show him my town, my city, and he found that amusing and intriguing and said that his wife would have liked that a lot. So I found him pretty loose and a human chap in one-to-one discussions. But of course he was also making his first visit as Vice President to the United States, and he made clear that we understood what the Chinese positions were on a variety of issues, to include Taiwan. I look forward to more opportunities to meet with the Vice President in whatever capacity I meet with him again in the future.

QUESTION: I know we don't have a whole lot of time, so just a couple or few more questions, just one specific one: Can you shed any light on the Steven Coulder (sp) who was the Counselor for Programs and Plans in the Beijing Embassy? We understand he's the CIA Station Chief there, and the Chinese asked to have him removed, and he has left Beijing. Can you shed any light on that?

SECRETARY POWELL: No.

QUESTION: No comment at all on that? You can understand my reason for asking that.

SECRETARY POWELL: And you can understand mine.

QUESTION: We understand each other I think, that's fine. With regard to North Korea, it's been a bit of a roller coaster since the beginning of the Bush Administration. We've seen an effort to halt the Clinton engagement of North Korea's involvement in the Sunshine Policy as the US reviewed the policy with North Korea, then there was the decision to engage in a series of milestones, the axis if evil speech, and finally the February plan to re-engage. It's been a bit of a roller coaster.

Where do you see things standing now in the light of signals that North Korea sent the apology for the naval incident? What do you make of the current state of relations and how willingly will you be engaged?

SECRETARY POWELL: You know it has been quite a roller coaster. When the Administration came in, the President wanted to review what had been done in the previous Administration to review our own policy. We did that in the summer of last year, 2001. The President made his decision that we would say to the North Koreans that we are willing to engage any time, any place. But they had to understand that we are deeply concerned about proliferation activity and the development of weapons of mass destruction.

We also added an element that wasn't really foremost in President Clinton's agenda, and that was their conventional army, huge number of troops sitting on the border between North and South Korea, just a stone's throw from Seoul, and we felt that had to be in the agenda as well. We committed ourselves to the Sunshine Policy of President Kim Dae Jung and said we said we are waiting to hear from the North Koreans. A lot of back-and-forth took place, as is usually the case with our conversations with the North, and then they indicated to us that they were willing to engage. We said fine, we're willing to send a delegation. They didn't give us a prompt answer as to when they would receive a delegation, and then we had the incident at sea.

QUESTION: Some people said that was the reason.

SECRETARY POWELL: It confused things. It seemed a little inappropriate at that time to consider sending a delegation at the same time we had just seen the loss of life on the part of our South Korean friends in an incident that seemed to be quite provocative. We couldn't tell if it was just two local commanders mixing it up or whether it was a deliberate provocation directed from Pyongyang, and for what purpose.

Time has passed and now the North Koreans have indicated that they regretted the incident, essentially taking blame for the incident, and indicating a willingness to speak with South Korea, and also to begin speaking with the Chinese on various issues. So we are once again in a position of seeing whether or not circumstances are winding themselves again where we might send a delegation. Now I'll also be at the ARF meeting in Brunei this week and a North Korean representative will be there. I'm not sure if we'll do anything but exchange pleasantries.

QUESTION: You would like to meet, you would like to see

SECRETARY POWELL: I didn't say that, really a question and answer. I have an open mind, but I'm sure we'll exchange pleasantries as we did last year. Whether or not there's a basis to have a more extended exchange remains to be seen.

QUESTION: Do you hope it's more than an exchange of pleasantries?

SECRETARY POWELL: We'll see, we'll see. I can't prejudge it, yet. You are probably writing this at a time after this happens anyway.

QUESTON: Exactly. If I may, Sir, one last question, if we have enough time: On Japan, it's been more than a decade of economic stagnation. Are you concerned at all that if the Japanese don't really move more aggressively toward economic reform, that in the coming decades we are going to see China eclipse Japan as an economic power in this region and that would change the geopolitical balance or the relationship between the US and Japan?

SECRETARY POWELL: Let me separate that into two pieces, the first one on Japan. We have supported Prime Minister Koizumi's efforts to deal with the structural problems that exist with the Japanese economy. On the issue of non-performing loans and some of the other problems they have need for more growth, Prime Minister Koizumi is moving in this direction. The rate at which he moves is a judgment he'll have to make, but we think he should move as aggressively as he can to do something about these issues of growth and elimination of non-performing loans.

The question of China is there of course, and that would seem to be an impetus to Prime Minister Koizumi. It remains to be seen whether China will grow to the point where it eclipses the economies of Asia, especially Southeast Asia. It is going to be a fascinating development to watch, as China is now in the WTO and demonstrating great skill in the international marketplace and with a population that is skilled and hardworking. It will be a major competitor; it will also be a major market, and we will see how other nations respond to this challenge of a major competitor and the opportunities presented by a major market.

QUESTION: One last question: Are you going to be discussing with any of the leaders you'll be meeting here and the rest of your trip, the US desire to see Saddam Hussein toppled, if necessary by force? Will you be soliciting their views on that issue?

SECRETARY POWELL: I'm sure that in the course of my conversations during this week, the issue of Iraq will come up. I will point out that this is a dangerous regime that is developing weapons of mass destruction and which should be of concern to the entire international community. The President does not have any war plans sitting on his desk, so it is not my intention to solicit support for a war plan that the President does not yet have on his desk.

QUESTION: It has been a great pleasure.

SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you, good luck to you.

QUESTION: Good luck to you. Thanks so much.

(end transcript)

(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)

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