*EPF302 05/08/2002
Transcript: State Department Noon Briefing, May 8
(Iceland/NATO, Israel/Palestinian Authority, UK, Pakistan, North Korea/China/South Korea/Japan, Syria/Iraq, Iran) (8330)

State Department Spokesman Richard Boucher briefed.

Following is the State Department transcript:

(begin transcript)

U.S. Department of State
Daily Press Briefing Index
Wednesday, May 8, 2002
1:40 p.m. EDT

Briefer: Richard Boucher, Spokesman

ICELAND/NATO
-- Secretary Powell's Upcoming Trip to Reykjavik

ISRAEL/PALESTINIANS
-- Negotiations to End Standoff at the Church of the Nativity/Involvement of Italian Government/ Reports of a Resolution
-- Secretary Powell's Telephone Calls/ Discussions with the Vatican
-- Status and Future of Chairman Arafat
-- Palestinian Authority Reform/ Prime Minister Sharon's Remarks
-- Enunciation of the Need to Democratize/ Assistance to Palestinians
-- Address by Chairman Arafat Today/ Palestinian State
-- Importance of Political Settlement/ Comments of Two Israeli Officials
-- Israeli Self-Defense/ Consequences of Israeli Actions
-- Election within the Palestinian Authority/ French Proposal
-- U.S. Policy on Withdrawal/ No New Incursions/ Suicide Bombing
-- Status of Meeting/ Whether King Abdallah Endorsed the Meeting
-- Housing and Humanitarian Issues/ Role of Director Tenet
-- Detained Americans/ Travel by Chairman Arafat

UNITED KINGDOM
-- Secretary Powell's Meeting with Foreign Secretary Straw

PAKISTAN
-- Car Bombing in Karachi

CHINA/NORTH KOREA/SOUTH KOREA/JAPAN
-- North Koreans in Consulate General Shenyang/ Safe Passage to South Korea/Defectors in Japanese Consulate
-- Cancelled Economic Talks/ Scheduled Meetings in New York

SYRIA/IRAQ
-- Syria Holding Up Iraq Resolution

IRAN
-- Talks Between Iran and the United States


U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
DAILY PRESS BRIEFING

WEDNESDAY, MAY 8, 2002
(ON THE RECORD UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED)

1:40 p.m. EDT

MR. BOUCHER: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I don't have any statements or announcements. I think you've all seen the announcement of the Secretary's trip to Reykjavik next week, but I would be glad to take any questions you have today.

QUESTION: Well, on the Church of the Nativity situation being stalled, the Secretary was to make, you thought, a third call yesterday. What has he done? What's going on? Is it a loser? Has it just gone down the tubes, or what?

MR. BOUCHER: I wouldn't draw any conclusions at this point, Barry. We're still working these issues with the parties themselves, first and foremost in the area, and then second of all with the Europeans, keeping in touch with the Europeans. I think today the Secretary talked to Mr. Solana. But at this point I don't have any new news for you.

QUESTION: Did he make the third call to Berlusconi yesterday?

MR. BOUCHER: No, I don't think he did yesterday.

QUESTION: You know, we're here. We can't be in both places. But the Italian Government sounds as if the very core of the arrangement was a big surprise to them. Is that credible?

MR. BOUCHER: Barry, I'm not going to get into this any more than I did yesterday. I think it would be for the Italians to explain what they knew, if they knew anything, when they knew it. The issue has been that we have been working this. As you know, some of the pieces that are needed, like the list of people in the Church, are very recent, so this has been a rapidly moving situation. We are continuing to work it.

QUESTION: Richard, there are reports that there has been some resolution and that all but the 13 gunmen will come out, with the 13 gunmen staying in the Church to be guarded by US and British people.

MR. BOUCHER: I've just seen those reports. I don't have anything for you on them at this moment.

QUESTION: Richard, have you questioned other countries to ask them whether they would be happy to take these people?

MR. BOUCHER: I'm not going to get into that at this point. As I said, we're keeping in touch with various Europeans on the issue. Obviously we discussed everything in the Middle East with Foreign Secretary Straw today, including the situation in Bethlehem. But no, I just don't have anything new on this right now. We had some conversations yesterday, but we don't have a conclusion at this point.

QUESTION: Richard, you've been very careful, or it appears you've been very careful, to mention the word "Italy" or "Italian" only once, and that was in response to a direct question about what the Italians knew and when they knew it. When you say you're keeping in touch with the Europeans, are we supposed to -- does that imply that you don't see the Italians as necessarily the depository for these people any more because of the problems that apparently they have?

MR. BOUCHER: I wouldn't draw that conclusion. As you know, the Secretary talked to the Italian Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister as well, yesterday several times. He also talked to Mr. Solana yesterday. He has talked to Mr. Solana again today. We keep in touch with the Europeans in a variety of ways.

We are looking to work this out. We're looking for people to play a helpful role in helping resolve the situation in Bethlehem. And as I said, we've been working with the parties, as well as in Europe. But I can't give you any conclusion at this point. The people who we're talking to themselves are considering what they might want to do.

QUESTION: Does the Secretary intend to talk to Prime Minister Berlusconi again about this matter?

MR. BOUCHER: He might. I just don't have any particular schedule of conversations at this point.

QUESTION: Yesterday you said that the discussions with the Italian Government were ongoing, I believe you said, and that you were hopeful that there could be an arrangement made. Are you still hopeful?

MR. BOUCHER: I forgot to look up my exact transcript. I think I said we're hopeful that the situation will be worked out, meaning the Church, and that necessitates them having somewhere to go. But yes, we're still hopeful that this can be resolved. We're still hopeful that this situation at the Church can be worked out. We've been working it very actively, as I said, in the region, on the ground, and we're continuing to work with our European colleagues to try to make sure that one of the pieces, which is for these people to have a place to go, can be worked out for Italy or whatever.

QUESTION: But Richard, you did say yesterday specifically that you were hopeful that Italy would --

QUESTION: (Inaudible.)

MR. BOUCHER: Can be worked out, period.

QUESTION: -- would take in some of these people -- no, you said specifically you were hopeful that Italy will take -- I mean, that's the quote that was everywhere this morning, and it was on the transcript. I mean, you said it. You were hopeful that Italy would take these people in, or at least some of the people in the Church, take them in.

So is that no longer on the table?

MR. BOUCHER: I'm not trying to move backwards from anything we've said before. Certainly, as you know, the Italians are considering the matter, but at this point I'm not able to advance from where we were before. So I'm trying to stand exactly where I was yesterday.

QUESTION: But how can you possibly say the Italians are still considering the matter when they've rejected it twice, including after the phone -- I mean, they've been very specific. They don't want anything to do with this idea. Is it your understanding the Italians are still considering -- it's still a possibility?

MR. BOUCHER: From the reporting that I see that there are discussions going on in Europe, there are discussions going on in Italy, and I don't have any new reports for you.

QUESTION: Are there discussions going on at the Vatican as part of this?

MR. BOUCHER: The Vatican has been involved on the ground as well.

QUESTION: Out there?

MR. BOUCHER: Yes.

QUESTION: Richard, can we move on to other aspects of the Middle East? One of the questions which arose during Prime Minister Sharon's visit was clearly the status and future of Chairman Arafat.

Can you be a little more explicit than the Secretary was? Do you -- does the United States still consider Arafat to be the representative of the Palestinian people and the man with whom you have to deal?

MR. BOUCHER: Chairman Arafat is still the head of the Palestinian Authority. We have told you I think many times -- the Secretary has, the President has -- about the need for real leadership there, about the need for reform in the Palestinian Authority if donors are to go forward with support for Palestinian rebuilding and Palestinian institutions.

We want to work with other members of the international community to rebuild the Palestinian Authority on the basis of the things the President cited: democratic principles, market economics, good governance, transparency, accountability. We're not asking the Palestinian leadership in this regard to do anything different than we ask of other national leaderships around the world.

As we look to Chairman Arafat, we recognize him as head of the Palestinian Authority, and we would expect him to play a constructive role in that effort.

QUESTION: Can I follow up on that? Another thing that Prime Minister Sharon says, as I'm sure you've noticed, was that reform of the Authority, which seems to be codeword for the removal of Arafat, is a precondition for advancement of the political process.

Now, the Secretary said there was no detailed discussion of that. Can you tell us whether the United States sees any link between the two processes; in other words, reform and progress towards a settlement?

MR. BOUCHER: I would refer you to exactly what the Secretary said outside.

QUESTION: Well, he didn't really address it.

MR. BOUCHER: Well, he did, Jonathan, and I'll quote you the terms that he used. He said reform is essential. He said that we need to see reform within the Palestinian Authority. We didn't get into any detailed discussions of what might be a precondition for something else. Reform is essential. At the same time, I think you have to consider the humanitarian part of it, the economic part of it, and the political dialogue. And he said we'll certainly know what the Prime Minister thinks, we'll certainly be taking his thoughts into consideration.

So he did address the issue of where that fits with the others, and that's that they're all essential pieces as we move forward.

QUESTION: Well, but does he share his views?

MR. BOUCHER: I share the Secretary's views.

QUESTION: No. Does the Secretary share -- he says he'd take them into consideration, but does he actually share them?

MR. BOUCHER: The Secretary was describing his own views, and then said we also know what Prime Minister Sharon thinks; we'll certainly take his thoughts into consideration with the thoughts and views of many others as we go forward.

QUESTION: Sorry, can I just -- the Secretary was expressing his own views or the views of the United States?

MR. BOUCHER: When he said that reform is essential --

QUESTION: Well, you said --

MR. BOUCHER: -- he was expressing the views of the United States of America.

QUESTION: What came out of the meeting yesterday between the President and Prime Minister Sharon?

MR. BOUCHER: He said that reform is essential, and we also need to move on the economic, humanitarian, security and political sides.

QUESTION: It's not that funny, Richard. He has said things purely personally before.

MR. BOUCHER: Not as Secretary of State.

QUESTION: Richard, can I follow up, please, just very briefly on that?

MR. BOUCHER: Okay, sometime we'll go beyond the front row.

QUESTION: The President is very explicit about the reforms he wants, and it's a tall order. The same question that comes up when we talk about Arafat acting against terror. Does the administration -- you said he has to be part of the process -- but does the administration believe Arafat is capable of this kind of -- I don't know what the word would be -- wholesale, huge change, in the Palestinian operation? A constitution, transparency, no corruption; is this something that the administration believes Arafat can carry out -- with help from his friends?

MR. BOUCHER: I don't think it's a question of our estimate of other leaders. The fact is he is the leader. The fact is, as leader he has a responsibility to do the things that are necessary for his people, and these are the things that we think are necessary. This is what we, as international donors, as friends of many leaderships around the world, expect of him, as we look forward to anticipation of a Palestinian state down the road, as a product of a negotiation to live side by side with Israel. One has to expect that leadership to emerge, and capable of governing, of establishing that state, in a way that's comparable to others. And that means, as we rebuild these institutions, as we work with them in the future, we want to see it go that way.

So it's both with a view to the future -- it's the view to the future, it's the responsibilities of leadership, and frankly it's the expectation of people who might give money.

QUESTION: What motivated this recent enunciation of the need to democratize and get rid of corruption in the Palestinian Authority? I mean, haven't you -- hasn't the US Government known about this for a long, long time?

MR. BOUCHER: I think some of these things have been known, but as I said, you know, in a reply I just gave to the question before, if you look at the situation we're in now, given what's happened in terms of the violence in the region, how do you stop the violence? You have to have a Palestinian Authority that can exercise effective authority.

In terms of the hardship that Palestinians have suffered, you want to make sure that the economic and humanitarian assistance is given to the people who need it. In terms of the destruction of Palestinian institutions, you want to make sure that as they are rebuilt, that they operate on the basis that you would expect of anybody, and that's transparency, accountability, openness.

So I think if you look at any of these particular factors now, you come to the same conclusion: that there needs to be a Palestinian Authority that can operate and that can accept money and that can help their people in an accountable and open fashion.

QUESTION: So just to follow up, is it fair to say that the decision to rebuild a lot of this infrastructure, also with that was a call for more accountability and to have genuine democratic reform, that the two sort of went hand in hand as the decision?

MR. BOUCHER: I just gave you three reasons, and it's fair to say all three. I'm not going to pick out one that you're trying to pick out just for fun. Sorry.

QUESTION: Richard, how do you analyze Arafat's statement today? Has he started down the road you want him to go down in terms of the address he made? And I have a follow-up question.

MR. BOUCHER: Chairman Arafat's condemnation of this attack and the instructions to confront and prevent terrorist activity against Israeli civilians are indeed steps in the right direction. We also point out, though, that Chairman Arafat must show leadership. He has to continue to signal clearly to his people that terror and violence cannot help the Palestinians achieve their national aspirations, and he must move now to exert maximum efforts to confront terror and violence.

You have a follow-up? Assuming the answer would be less than you wanted, you have a follow-up. Go ahead.

QUESTION: Well, actually, it's kind of related. If Chairman Arafat is taking a step forward, as you want him to, yesterday did Prime Minister Sharon take a step backward? When he was here in February, he met with Bush. He said pretty explicitly that he did see eventually a Palestinian state. Yesterday he said that that's premature.

How does the administration interpret that?

MR. BOUCHER: I think in terms of the specific meeting and how it was discussed, the White House dealt with some of those issues in their briefings and discussion of it, so I don't think I can elaborate. What I would say is that this meeting with Prime Minister Sharon also fits in the context of the other meetings the President is having. And the Secretary said, you know, we had the April 4 speech, we had his trip, we have a series of consultations the President is having and the Secretary are having with leaders, including Prime Minister Sharon. So the point is to get their views at this juncture of how to move forward, and that was the key to the conversation yesterday and these others --

QUESTION: Both the President and the Secretary have said repeatedly and stressed repeatedly the horizon of a Palestinian state, of Palestine, and you've all made a big deal about the fact that you used that word "Palestine." Sharon isn't using anything approaching that word and is moving backward from that. So isn't that a problem?

MR. BOUCHER: As I said, the point we're at now is to get the views of the parties and look at how we can plot a way forward, how we can work with the parties to move forward. Because I think we all recognize the necessity of moving forward. As the Secretary said once again to you outside, whatever military action is taken, whatever violence there is, it's not going to solve the problem until we get to a political settlement.

QUESTION: Richard, given the Secretary's repeated statements and yours today, and I think really you could even say the White House's, that things all need to proceed in parallel -- security, economic rebuilding, reform and political horizon -- do you have any reaction to the comments of, I guess now, two anonymous senior Israeli officials on the Prime Minister's plane on the way home that the administration shares the Prime Minister's view that no substantive progress is really possible as long as Mr. Arafat is in charge and that, as Jonathan said, reform of the Palestinian Authority does in some way amount to code for bypassing, replacement, marginalization of Mr. Arafat?

MR. BOUCHER: The question was do I have anything to say about anonymous officials? No. I think we've stated our view quite clearly, and the Secretary answered the question again outside.

QUESTION: And was there any talk in the discussion this morning between the Secretary and Foreign Secretary Straw about the possibility of Britain taking the Palestinian gunmen?

MR. BOUCHER: I'm not going to speculate on where these people are going to go. As you know, we have talked to the Italians about them, the possibility that they might go to Italy. But I'm not trying to move forward into any other places or areas at this moment.

QUESTION: Can I back up? The previous question made reference to Israeli officials on the plane. I would like to ask a question about whether the Secretary or any other senior US official has talked to anybody on the Prime Minister's plane before he -- presumably before he landed, which he should have done by now I guess? Was there any contact between US officials and --

MR. BOUCHER: Not that I know of. Wasn't the Secretary asked that outside?

QUESTION: No, not quite that way.

MR. BOUCHER: Well, similar to that. No, he hasn't had any further discussions himself. I don't know to what extent Mr. Burns might have talked to members of the Israeli party today. But I think certainly the contact with the Israelis out in the field with our Embassy remains close, and that's where we're talking to them today.

QUESTION: But you don't know if Assistant Secretary Burns talked to officials traveling with the Prime Minister back home?

MR. BOUCHER: I've not heard him talk about any such conversations, but I can't say for sure he didn't have any. He talks to a lot of people all the time.

QUESTION: The Secretary said outside -- he spoke of responses that will come and acts of self-defense. After the last Israeli response, the Secretary said at one point that it had gone to the point of affecting American interests in the region. What kind of counsel are you now offering Israel on the nature of its response and how far it should go?

MR. BOUCHER: Our view remains the same as it has always been, that Israel does have a right to take necessary steps to safeguard its citizens. That remains the US position. At the same time, we have always said that they need to think carefully about the consequences of any actions they decide to take. So that remains our view. The Israelis do not seek, nor do we try to provide in any way, some kind of green light for whatever action they might decide.

QUESTION: You had a judgment as to whether the consequences of Israel's actions, as Mark has just alluded to. You concluded explicitly, at least the Secretary did, that while Israel has the right to self-defense, it was hurting US interests and Israeli interests by pursuing this incursion, at least to the extent it did.

Now, last night the Prime Minister explicitly, and one might say wisely, said he had not discussed with the President or the Vice President what Israel might do. But the question remains has the US advised restraint? If Israel -- I don't want to do an "if" because you'll say it's hypothetical, but are you urging Israel not to respond to the extent that it will again hurt Israeli and American interests?

MR. BOUCHER: A well crafted sentence without an "if" in it, but I really have to say that I think our view on this is quite well known. We've expressed it very clearly last time in the way you said. We have made clear fundamentally what our view is. The Israelis know that.

But as I said again, we don't design their actions. We don't give them green lights for any particular things, nor do they seek any kind of approval from us. They make decisions. Our counsel has always been that you do have a right to safeguard your citizens, but you have to think about the consequences of any actions you undertake. And when those consequences become such as they were last time, we've been frank in pointing that out as well.

QUESTION: Richard, this is two parts. Is the United States open to the idea that -- of Arafat being less than the head of state or head of the Palestinian government? In other words, is he open to the suggestion by the Prime Minister that he become somewhat of a figurehead with little real power? Is that something that you guys would be willing to consider? Or is it up to the Palestinian people?

MR. BOUCHER: First of all, fundamentally it is up to the Palestinian people. But second of all, he is leader of the Palestinian Authority. Our view, expressed repeatedly, including about five times already today -- he needs to lead, he needs to exercise authority. There's no other view.

QUESTION: Okay, okay. So you say fundamentally it's up to the Palestinian people. Exactly how are they supposed to make --

MR. BOUCHER: No, I said he needs -- he is the leader and he needs to lead and exercise authority. That's --

QUESTION: You're saying the leadership of the Palestinian people is fundamentally up to the Palestinian people, correct? That's what you said.

MR. BOUCHER: That's true of any situation and any government in any part of the world.

QUESTION: Exactly. So how are they going to express their will? Because what it seems to -- does this democratization and reform involve some kind of an election? Because if it does, it seems like you're getting dangerously close to an idea that was -- an idea from the former French government that was pooh-poohed, to say the least, for an election within the Palestinian Authority.

MR. BOUCHER: I think, Matt, it's quite a leap that you're making there from the President saying that reconstruction and rebuilding of the Palestinian Authority needs to be based on principles of openness, transparency, anti-corruption, an end to terror, and indeed democracy as well, to saying that we endorse some particular idea for a particular election at a particular moment in the particularly near future.

QUESTION: No, no, that's not my question. My question is --

MR. BOUCHER: Well, that was your question, because that's the idea that you're making reference to.

QUESTION: No, my question was how does the Palestinian people express their will of who they want --

MR. BOUCHER: That's a different question.

QUESTION: But that's exactly what my question was. You must have missed it. (Laughter.)

MR. BOUCHER: I was asked about a proposal the former French Government made, and I was coming to that right now.

QUESTION: No, I said it was getting -- I said how are they supposed to express their will? And if they were -- because if you're going to say it through an election, then it sounds like it's getting close to what --

MR. BOUCHER: I think you're asking me how are we going to implement all these things, and what sort of more democratic, more transparent, more open structures do we expect to see. And the answer is we expect to see more democratic, more open, more transparent structures as we go forward with a rebuilding. But we have not seen the Palestinians or anyone else, frankly, design the architecture of those structures at this point.

QUESTION: So it doesn't necessarily involve elections?

MR. BOUCHER: Again, as a general principle, people around the world ought to have a right to choose their leaders through elections. But if I'm not misconstruing your question the way I don't think I am, we are not endorsing a particular proposal for a particular election.

QUESTION: Okay.

QUESTION: Can I just get back to the previous question about the right of self -- the necessary steps in self-defense? Does that include incursions?

MR. BOUCHER: Our view on that has been quite well known. We expect the Israelis to withdraw.

QUESTION: So you expect the Israelis to withdraw, but they say that those incursions were -- they call it Defensive Shield. I mean, they say it's in their right of self-defense. So it seems it's a little iffy. I'm just trying to understand --

MR. BOUCHER: As your colleague and former neighbor pointed out, we were quite clear in that case where we thought the consequences of our actions were detrimental to Israel's interests as well as our interests in the region.

QUESTION: So what is it -- can I just -- so then what does it mean that Israel has a right to take necessary steps of self-defense, especially since you've just told us that they don't counsel you and ask you for green lights or anything like that? I mean, if they say it's in their self-defense, and then you say, well, you know, but there were consequences there.

MR. BOUCHER: I think it means what we say. We don't design their actions. We don't approve their actions.

QUESTION: Well, I understand that, but I just --

MR. BOUCHER: They have to decide. They have to decide.

QUESTION: I don't think you can have the best of both worlds, where you say they have the right to their own self-defense, but then they take actions in their self-defense and then criticize it.

MR. BOUCHER: I think it's fair for us to point out when they take actions that have detrimental consequences to their interests as well as ours. I think it's fair for us to say so. And that's what we did in this case.

QUESTION: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the --

MR. BOUCHER: I'd be glad to.

QUESTION: -- the President said in the April 4th speech something to the effect of there should be withdrawal and there should not be new incursions. Does that remain United States policy, particularly in light of the suicide bombing yesterday?

MR. BOUCHER: I can't remember if it was in the April 4th speech or not, frankly. But that is a policy that we have enunciated, and that has not changed.

QUESTION: Could I ask an Arafat question?

MR. BOUCHER: Why not? Everybody else is.

QUESTION: Is it the assessment of the United States Government that in pursuing the transparency and the accountability that you would like to see, that Arafat's one-man rule inevitably will be diluted?

MR. BOUCHER: You know, I think you have to stick with the fundamentals at this point and not try to predict the future too much. We all know that for the variety of reasons that we discussed before, there needs to be more transparent, more open, more accountable, in fighting against corruption, no ties to terror, sort of leadership, institutions for the Palestinians. As they seek to build this state that they aspire to, there need to be those kinds of institutions for a future state.

Chairman Arafat has the position as the head. We would expect him to be a constructive part of that effort. As they build this, as the leader of the Palestinian Authority, we would expect him to use those institutions to exercise the authority that he has and will have, as long as he remains the leader.

QUESTION: Has there been any change on the conference?

MR. BOUCHER: Nothing new on that, no.

QUESTION: Can we move on?

MR. BOUCHER: Can we -- sorry.

QUESTION: One follow-up? Has King Abdallah endorsed the meeting?

MR. BOUCHER: Has King Abdallah endorsed the meeting?

QUESTION: Yes.

MR. BOUCHER: I don't know. You can ask him.

QUESTION: Concerning the Middle East, just as in the Robert Frost poem, we seem to -- there are two -- we're at a juncture with two trails that are going off into one extreme of enforced separation that the Israelis are speaking about, and the Europeans and ourselves looking for some sort of peace and workable solution.

And are there any day-to-day concrete steps that both the PLO and Israelis can do with housing, humanitarian and other styles of day-to-day tasks that can get them working together? Or is that just for naught, and is Arafat actually taking the PA over a cliff?

MR. BOUCHER: I think a couple of things to say in response to your questions. One is when the Secretary was in the region and afterwards, and then with the President's speech on April 4th and his subsequent statements as well, we made quite clear it's time for the Palestinian Authority, for Chairman Arafat as its leader, and for the other leaders of the Palestinians, to make a real choice and to move in a new direction, to move in this direction of more openness and transparency, and indeed more democratic leadership. Because that is the way to achieve through a negotiation what they aspire to, and that is the only way to achieve what they aspire to. So yes indeed, we have made clear that we are at a critical juncture where the roads diverge.

In terms of the day-to-day steps, I think we've been quite clear with all the parties that they need to take practical steps to improve security, that they need to resume security cooperation, they need to do things, such as for Chairman Arafat to issue the condemnations, to issue the clear instructions, such as he has done, and that's why we describe those as steps in the right direction.

But there are certainly other things, to exercise maximum effort to stop the violence, that we would expect him to do.

QUESTION: Non Mid-East, on Straw. I don't know, I guess -- I don't know --

QUESTION: One more on the Middle East?

MR. BOUCHER: Okay.

QUESTION: Has the United States received Arafat's assent for dispatching Tenet to redesign his security structure?

MR. BOUCHER: I don't know a precise answer to the question. I would say that when we were inthe region, we discussed a number of possible steps, and Chairman Arafat at that time indicated his assent to the various steps that were being discussed at the time, including the possibility of sending Director Tenet over.

So, I mean, we haven't scheduled any particular meetings, which I guess would be the way of indicating that he was prepared to discuss these things with him. But I would say in a general framework of what we discussed during the trip that he indicated his agreement that this was an important and necessary step.

QUESTION: This reform of the Palestinian Authority is something slightly new. I mean, Zinni didn't make that point, did he? And neither did George Tenet, so far as we know. And is George Tenet going to be the point man on this reform of the Palestinian security forces, and perhaps on the democratic side?

And what relationship does this reform of the Palestinian movement add to the principal problem the Palestinians have, which is ending the occupation?

MR. BOUCHER: I think that's what we've been discussing for the last half hour, but let me try to address it more precisely.

The questions that were asked earlier about why now, I think speak for themselves; that the answer is why now, because everything you look at -- in terms of moving forward, in terms of eventually establishing this Palestinian state that is the goal of the political process, in terms of providing the humanitarian assistance and economic reconstruction for the Palestinian people, and in terms of really taking authority for their own security and for stopping the violence -- every time you look at one of those questions, the answer is more accountable, more transparent, more responsible Palestinian institutions. And that's why these issues arise at this juncture with these events.

So I think that's why these are an important part of the future, and certainly indeed as the Palestinians look to their future, we would all hope and expect them to want to embrace these kinds of changes because this is how to build their future.

In terms of the relationship to ending the occupation, as I said, if this is the path forward on these fronts, on the security front to take their own responsibility, on the economic front to rebuild an economy that has opportunity for their people, on the political front to establish a state that can be meaningful, then part of building these institutions in this manner is part of building their political future and ending the occupation.

QUESTION: I'm sorry if you already addressed Arafat's latest comments in Arabic on Arabic TV, Palestinian television --

MR. BOUCHER: I did.

QUESTION: -- condemning the attack and calling on his security organizations to prevent further attacks.

MR. BOUCHER: I did.

QUESTION: You did?

MR. BOUCHER: I did.

QUESTION: Oh, sorry.

QUESTION: There are six Americans that have been detained, four of them in the Bethlehem by the International Solidarity Movement. They were some of the kids that tried to get in. And then two doctors with Kinder Incorporated, a group of doctors that are interested helping the Palestinians out, a fairly important doctor from Los Angeles --

MR. BOUCHER: I talked about the individuals yesterday to the extent that I could.

QUESTION: I see.

MR. BOUCHER: Unfortunately in most of these cases we don't have Privacy Act waivers, and therefore I'm not in a position to talk about a specific individual or situation in any detail. But we have noted that some Americans have been detained. We have had consular access to them, at least in some of the cases that you're referring to.

QUESTION: Do you -- have you asked for Privacy Act waivers?

MR. BOUCHER: Whenever we visit somebody in jail, we ask for a Privacy Act waiver, and they tell us who we can talk to. And these people did not say go ahead and tell my story to the press, so we're not going to do it. That's their right as Americans.

QUESTION: I recognize -- I don't even know if you were in the brief portion of the Straw meeting, but if you were, and if -- did the subject of the International Criminal Court Treaty come up at all?

MR. BOUCHER: When the Secretary came down to you, he had already had the -- they had already talked one on one. In the later discussion the answer is pretty much yes, it did come up.

QUESTION: And?

MR. BOUCHER: Just in passing. And they discussed it.

QUESTION: To what end?

MR. BOUCHER: To the end of understanding the US position and the UK position.

QUESTION: There was some talk that the Foreign Secretary was going to try to ask or try to get the Secretary and the rest of the government to reconsider its decision on that. Did that happen, and if it -- I mean, did it --

MR. BOUCHER: I would not --

QUESTION: No, no, no. If he did try, is there any change in the US position now from what it was on Monday.

MR. BOUCHER: I would not deign to speak for the Foreign Secretary, but I would say the US position is where it has been, and that was really not the tenor of the discussion that we had with him.

QUESTION: Did Secretary Powell reiterate to the Foreign Secretary the United States hopes Europeans will not invite Arafat to travel to their countries while there is still so much violence on the ground? Did that come up?

MR. BOUCHER: I don't think that specific issue came up. They came back to the Middle East in various ways in the larger meeting, as they had discussed it in the smaller one as well. And certainly our view that Chairman Arafat needs to exercise leadership at this present moment came up, but not in any specific --

QUESTION: So it's understood that that previous request stands, or the previous shared understanding.

MR. BOUCHER: It's understood that we believe that there's a lot for Chairman Arafat to do in terms of exercising leadership and authority in the Palestinian areas. Certainly the need to issue the instructions and carry out the instructions that he has issued should be paramount in all our minds, given the horrible bombing yesterday and the need for everybody to be there to do everything they can to stop the violence.

QUESTION: And one more. Did they discuss Israel's claim that EU money was being misused? That these documents, that PA have been using EU money inappropriately? Did that come up in the discussion --

MR. BOUCHER: It did not come up at this point, at least in the larger discussion with Jack Straw, with the Foreign Secretary. With the Foreign Secretary, I'd have to say we covered a whole lot of ground, as we always do in our discussions with the British, because we have a very fundamental understanding with them. And so they did talk about the Middle East, they talked about the upcoming meetings in Reykjavik, about Russia, about the International Criminal Court, about actually the drought in Southern Africa is something that concerns us very much. There's both drought and mismanagement of food resources in Southern Africa, particularly in Zimbabwe, that are of great concern to both our governments right now, and a number of other issues like that. So they really went around the world in a fairly short space of time.

QUESTION: Just a follow-up to Teri's first part of the question, about the -- whether the Secretary asked Foreign Secretary Straw about Arafat and travel to Europe. The Secretary has spoken to Solana several times in the last week and has seen him. Has this come up, that issue come up with -- in his discussions?

MR. BOUCHER: I don't know if this particular issue has come up. I think our view of the situation has been quite well expressed, both in public and in private, when it does come up. But I don't think it's a current issue, as far as I know. The discussions in recent days with Mr. Solana have been about the overall situation and how to move forward, and the particular situation with such things such as Bethlehem.

QUESTION: Can you say what you all know about the bomb in Karachi at this point?

MR. BOUCHER: Let me see if we do know very much about it. A car bombing today in Karachi destroyed a shuttle bus outside the Sheraton Hotel. Casualties are reported at 14 dead, many of whom are French nationals working on a project for Pakistan's military. There has been no claim of responsibility. The attack, it appears, was a suicide bombing.

We strongly condemn the heinous attack against France and Pakistan, two of our closest allies in the war on terrorism. We extend our sympathies to the families of the victims, and to France and Pakistan.

We are prepared to provide whatever assistance Pakistani authorities might require if they request any. I would point out the United States and Pakistan cooperate very closely on counterterrorism. Pakistani Interior Minister Haider and other senior officials are meeting today here in Washington in the first session of the joint working group on counterterrorism and law enforcement.

We do understand that there were some American citizens who were guests at the Sheraton Hotel who sustained superficial cuts and scrapes. We have no indication that any other Americans were harmed in the Karachi attack.

QUESTION: Richard, help us out a little. This seems to be the second suicide bombing like this in the last couple of months. Do you see this as a trend? It's unusual for that part of the world.

MR. BOUCHER: I'd have to go back and see what sort of trends there are. I would say that obviously any of these attacks are of great concern. They cause enormous harm to Americans, to in this case French and Pakistani nationals, but also to the interests of Pakistan. And we have worked very closely with President Musharraf, because he is as interested as anybody in ending this kind of violence in his country and putting Pakistan on a more moderate course. We're working very closely with Pakistan on counterterrorism issues, law enforcement issues, and the meetings that we're having today are evidence of that.

QUESTION: Do you have any (inaudible)?

MR. BOUCHER: No, I don't. Not at this point.

QUESTION: (Inaudible.)

MR. BOUCHER: I'll have to double-check. Do you remember? Two days. Yesterday and today, or today and tomorrow? Yesterday and today. So we'll see if tomorrow we can give you a rundown of what happened.

So we'll see if tomorrow we can give you a rundown of what happened.

QUESTION: Also on the same subject, the Foreign Secretary also said that he and the Secretary would be talking about the line of control. Is there anything new on that, or is that just kind of the standard rundown in your talks with the British about the situation?

MR. BOUCHER: I think it's one of the issues that is of concern to both of us, so we sort of exchange notes on where things stand and what we can do to ensure that tensions are defused.

QUESTION: But no new developments?

MR. BOUCHER: Nothing new to report from our side at this moment.

QUESTION: I want going to ask about the North Korean defectors, what happened yesterday in the town of Shenyang in China. Apparently two North Korean defectors entered the US Consulate. And my first question is I want to verify this, and where are these two individuals right now?

And the second is also the same day the five defectors failed to enter the Japanese consulate in the same -- Shenyang, and the Chinese security guard, they detained these five individuals, and two was -- they detained two individual inside the consulate in the visa application area. So do the United States Government aware of this incident, and any comments about this?

MR. BOUCHER: We are aware of the incident with the Japanese consulate, but I would leave it to the Japanese Government to talk about that. In terms of the US Consulate in Shenyang in north China, two North Koreans entered the Consulate General compound on May 8th. The Consulate General and our Embassy in Beijing have been in contact with the Chinese Government to resolve the situation. That's where we stand for the moment.

QUESTION: Do you want them to be -- to get safe passage to -- ultimately to South Korea?

MR. BOUCHER: At this point, I think we're working with the Chinese to resolve the situation. The only thing I would say is our view has consistently been and remains that we don't believe that North Koreans should be returned to face persecution in North Korea.

QUESTION: Doesn't that involve the UNHCR somehow?

MR. BOUCHER: It depends on the particular case. At this point we're talking to the Chinese Government about how to resolve it.

QUESTION: You've got nothing to say on the Chinese agents entering the Japanese embassy compound and spiriting away --

MR. BOUCHER: I'd leave it to the Japanese to address that.

QUESTION: I mean, that's kind of a nasty precedent that someday could involve an American.

MR. BOUCHER: I'd leave it to the Japanese Government to address that.

QUESTION: It looks like Syria is trying to hold up the Iraq resolution now in the Security Council. Do you have anything on that, any comment on Syria's --

MR. BOUCHER: I don't have anything particular on that. This resolution remains quite important to us. We continue to work it with other members of the Council. As you know, the Permanent Members have agreed on this resolution and submitted it. We'll be talking further with other members of the Council and looking for a vote as soon as possible.

QUESTION: -- told to us that the vote was expected to come today or later tomorrow morning?

MR. BOUCHER: I don't remember ever getting an absolutely precise date for the vote. I was given probabilities at some point. But we look to see a vote as soon as possible. We're still working it with other members of the Council.

QUESTION: Back to North Korea. Have you heard from the South Koreans about those cancelled economic talks last week, if there's any development in that?

MR. BOUCHER: Any developments would be for them to report. Certainly we've been in touch with them about the situation, but I don't have any news from their side to report to you.

QUESTION: And on scheduled meetings in New York with Pritchard and the North Koreans?

MR. BOUCHER: Nothing particular. We continue to work on making arrangements for discussions with North Korea.

QUESTION: The head of the Iranian parliamentary foreign affairs committee said that there were secret talks between Iran and the United States, apart from the ones we know about in various multilateral fora. Can you tell us anything about these secret talks?

MR. BOUCHER: No.

QUESTION: And make them not secret?

MR. BOUCHER: No. The discussions that we've had with representatives of Iran are, I think, quite well known. We've met many times in Geneva and elsewhere with Afghanistan's neighbors, including Iran; have meetings in New York, the "6 + 2." We had, I think, discussed with you our meetings with Iranians on Afghanistan in Bonn during the talks there.

So we have tried to work with the Iranian Government where they've been willing to do it, but it's in the context of these multilateral discussions. We hope that they can be a positive force in terms of things like rebuilding Afghanistan, and we continue to have these talks with them in that multilateral context. That's the only thing that there is.

QUESTION: Okay. But can you say that there are no other talks apart from these ones that you have described?

MR. BOUCHER: No other talks than the multilateral talks that we have in these contexts, yes.

QUESTION: And no other bilateral talks, perhaps? Are there any bilateral --

MR. BOUCHER: I think we told you we had bilateral meetings in Bonn during the Bonn talks on Afghanistan, the multilateral contacts.

QUESTION: Have there been any bilateral meetings this year?

MR. BOUCHER: I don't -- when was Bonn?

QUESTION: Last year, December.

MR. BOUCHER: December. When we have we had multilateral discussions. Do two people talk in the corridor sometimes? Yes, probably. But in terms of what you're asking for, we have met with representatives of Iran in multilateral contexts to discuss these multilateral issues. We have not had direct or secret discussions to discuss the bilateral agenda that we have with Iran.

QUESTION: Back to Syria. When Syria took its seat on the Security Council, you said that the US hoped that Syria would fulfill its obligations as a responsible Security Council member. Would you say that they're doing that? I mean, it seems as if a lot of the problems in the Security Council and a lot of the stalling and back-and-forth is about Syria.

MR. BOUCHER: Would you like me to give you an assessment of the performance of every member of the Security Council? Or do you just want --

QUESTION: No, just Syria.

QUESTION: Just the ones that you pointed out.

MR. BOUCHER: We're not in that business, I would say, of giving assessments, particularly at this stage. We do hope that all members of the Council will play a responsible role in international affairs. We have noted that Syria doesn't always agree with the other members of the Council. We've had a number of resolutions where a variety of members were working on something constructively, and Syria was not with them. But Syria in the end decides its own policy.

QUESTION: Thank you.

MR. BOUCHER: Thank you.

(The briefing was concluded at 2:35 p.m. EDT.)

(end transcript)

(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)

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