*EPF504 01/12/01
Transcript: January 9, 2001 "Dialogue" on Chinese Alien Smuggling
(U.S. immigration officials on American Embassy TV) (12,980)

U.S. immigration officials warned of the dangers of human smuggling during an American Embassy TV "Dialogue" program conducted January 9 with reporters and officials in Beijing, Shenyang, Guangzhou, and Hong Kong.

"Alien smuggling is a multi-billion dollar fraud built on false hopes," said
Janet Chu, officer-in-charge for the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) in Beijing, China. "Beneath the empty promises lie enormous risks, unspeakable horrors, and human misery."

"In the past year we have all seen migrants found dead in containers on ocean-going cargo vessels, in trucks, and most recently the two who perished horribly at sea last week," Chu said.

"Smugglers lure unsuspecting migrants into risking their lives on dangerous journeys only to be sold into indentured servitude. In order to pay smuggling fees as high as 60,000 U.S. dollars, migrants and their families borrow from smuggling syndicates and become easy prey for violent criminal gangs," she continued.

Jack Lin, INS international affairs officer, observed that "(f)or many people, the lure of riches and luxury overcome their fears of hazards of being smuggled to the United States."

"Snakeheads (the smugglers) won't tell you what I am going to tell you," he said. "The dangers are real. The conditions of smuggling vessels and safehouses are horrible. The working conditions in sweat shops and brothels are horrific. Paying back smuggling fees can take years and years of slave-like labor. The chances of getting caught by authorities and being returned are great. In short, it's not worth the risk."

James Chaparro, INS chief of national operations on anti-smuggling, urged would-be migrants to use the many legal channels for getting into the United States.

"Depending on the types of visa that someone is applying for, it can be almost immediate for their entry -- for example, if they marry a United States citizen. Or it can be a longer term type of a wait if they have a distant relative in the United States who is able to petition for them," Chaparro said. "And in some instances where someone has skilled labor, they can come to work very quickly in the United States on a non-immigrant visa that will permit them to work in the United States. So there are many channels to come."

Following is a transcript of the program:

(begin transcript)

AMERICAN EMBASSY TV NETWORK "DIALOGUE"
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of Broadcast Services
Washington, D.C.

GUESTS:

Janet Chu, Officer in Charge
Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)
Beijing, China

Jack Lin, International Affairs Officer, INS

James Chaparro, Chief, National Operations on Anti-smuggling, INS

TOPIC: Alien Smuggling

POSTS: Beijing, Shenyang, Guangzhou, Hong Kong

HOST: Judlyne Lilly

DATE: January 9, 2001

TIME: 20:00 - 21:30 EST

MS. LILLY: Good morning, welcome to "Dialogue," I'm your host, Judlyne Lilly.

Alien smuggling refers to the trafficking of human beings by criminal organizations that use a variety of methods to move migrants illegally into other countries. Ruthless smugglers are paid or are promised tens of thousands of dollars by the migrants and their families in exchange for passage. Increasingly criminals are using new methods of transportation, such as shipping containers to conceal and transport illegal migrants, with increasingly disastrous results. Once discovered by immigration authorities, illegal migrants detained are processed and returned to their countries of origin. The irony here is that there are safe legal ways to enter the U.S., with full rights of residence and the protection of the law.

The U.S. government recognizes migrant smuggling as a global problem, and is addressing it on a global basis, and has specially trained individual officers to cities around the world.

To discuss international trafficking in migrants, we have with us a panel from the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service. Mr. James Chaparro is director of the smuggling and criminal investigations branch at INS headquarters. Ms. Janet Chu is the officer in charge of the INS Beijing office, and is formerly in charge of the INS Guangzhou office. Mr. Jack Lin is the former officer in charge of the INS Beijing office, and is currently the INS Asian desk officer in Washington. I would like to welcome you all to Worldnet's "Dialogue." I understand each of you have opening remarks. And, Mr. Chaparro you are going first.

MR. CHAPARRO: Thank you, Judlyne, and good morning. I'd like to thank everybody for attending this dialogue this morning. Alien smuggling is a global problem that over the last several years we have seen a tremendous increase, not only in the volume of alien smuggling, but also in the violence and the dangers associated with the smuggling of migrants from one country to another.

The Immigration and Naturalization Service -- our responsibility includes controlling both legal, and try to deter illegal immigration into the United States. My responsibility is to oversee INS's anti-smuggling efforts. And I want to highlight to you this morning some of the dangers associated with the alien smuggling. Not only during the passage, but also before and after, we see particularly with Chinese alien smuggling the migrants are exploited through the whole process, from start to finish, from the snakeheads who do the recruiting in the villages, to the beatings that often occur during the passage on ships, or while they are in what we call safehouses. And then they are often times sold into indentured servitude, much like the slavery that we saw in the 19th century, in order to pay off their smuggling debts.

Just to illustrate some of the dangers that are involved, I want to show some slides and just briefly narrate these, and then I am going to show some video after that. So can I have the first slide, please?

This is an incident that occurred just last week in Guam when a ruthless alien smuggler pulled to within a few hundred yards of the shoreline and told the migrants, You've reached your destination -- please swim to shore. This unlucky person was apparently attacked by a shark, and several other people nearly drowned. There was at least one other fatality in this incident.

Next slide, please. We see the typical ships that are used in smuggling people across the Pacific are very unseaworthy -- no life jackets -- very often there's very little food or water on the vessels.

Next one. Next slide, please. This is something that smugglers have recently transitioned to. We've seen a trend where they are actually put into containers -- freight containers and shipped across very spartan conditions -- a little more than bottled water -- and they are forced to stay in this container for anywhere from 10 to 15 days it takes to cross the Pacific, with no light, very little water, very little food.

Next one, please. This is another typical example of a rust bucket vessel that is ferrying migrants across the Pacific.

Next one. This is how many of the journeys end for the migrants when they
are caught by authorities -- they are quickly repatriated back to their home country.

Next, please. In one incident -- this occurred recently in Midway Island,
which is a U.S. territory. The conditions on the vessel were so poor that many of the people had severe dehydration and other medical problems when they arrived.

Next one. Oftentimes when the migrants are interdicted by U.S. authorities they are held in detention facilities until we can remove them from the United States. This is just a picture of one of the facilities inside Midway Island.

This is a typical vessel that is used to ferry people from the coastal waters of China out to mother ships prior to being smuggled across the Pacific. And you can see a vessel like this is very unseaworthy and subject to being interdicted by Chinese authorities.

Next one. This is a rather gruesome picture of a death that occurred recently inside of a container off of -- in the city of Seattle, where this particular person died of dehydration and was dead for several days, along with several living migrants who were locked inside of the container.

Next one. This is a picture of Midway Island where several -- approximately 120 migrants were arrested by U.S. authorities -- and I'm going to talk a little bit more about that later.

Next one -- and can I have the video, please, as well? This is an incident that occurred last September off of Midway Island, which is approximately 1, 200 miles west of Honolulu. This particular vessel had left the Fujian Province in China, and set out across the Pacific. It was out at sea for approximately 30 days when it broke down. After approximately another 30 days of drifting aimlessly at sea, the captain, realizing they were nearly out of food and water, made a stress call. The migrants hadn't eaten in a couple of days and they were nearly out of water. If you can see the conditions that they were forced to be held in on this vessel, the inside of the vessel was covered with human feces, they had very little drinking water.

There was a 14-year-old female on this vessel who was repeatedly raped by one of the snakeheads. And the reason that we are telling you this is not really to scare you, but just to let you know that coming to the United States illegally like this you face great dangers. And there's many legal ways to come here. But coming illegally you face all sorts of dangers. That's really all I have to say at this particular time.

MS. LILLY: All right. Mr. Lin? Go ahead, Mr. Lin.

MR. LIN: For many people, the lure of riches and luxury overcome their fears of hazards of being smuggled to the United States. Snakeheads won't tell you what I am going to tell you. The dangers are real. The conditions of smuggling vessels and safehouses are horrible. The working conditions in sweat shops and brothels are horrific. Paying back smuggling fees can take years and years of slave-like labor. The chances of getting caught by authorities and being returned are great. In short, it's not worth the risk.

As a former U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service officer in charge of the Beijing office, I saw first hand the families that were broken and too often destroyed by a smuggling syndicate. My message is quite simple: It's not worth the risk. There are legal ways to migrate to the U.S. and other countries. It may take a little longer, but in the long run the rewards will be vastly better. The U.S. government immigration policy is based on the concept of that. All of the smuggled people have to be laborers, work in a slave shop. The possibility to be sent back by the U.S. authorities is great. So what I am going to say is that it is not worth the risk to be smuggled into the United States. So as the former U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service officer in charge of the Beijing office, I saw first-hand the families who were broken and too often destroyed by those smuggling gangs.

But today my message is quite simple. That is, never believe the lies told by the smuggling gangs, and bet on your life and your family's life. It is not worth the risk. There are many ways, legal ways, to migrate to the U.S. and other countries. This may take a little bit longer -- the process maybe takes a little bit longer than you have been more patient about that. However, the reward is far more better than the result of being smuggled into the U.S.

The immigration policy of the U.S. is based on the unit of family. That is to say, if you are patient, and if you can immigrate to the U.S. through the legal way, you will be able to direct relatives who are being able to reunite with you in the U.S. So do not take yourself, your life, the people that you love to take their lives in the hands of the snakeheads and the smuggling gangs. That's not worth it.

Follow the legal channels to migrate to the U.S. Never try to take the risk. Never believe in the beautiful life told by the smuggling groups. Thank you.

MS. LILLY: Thank you, sir. Ms. Chu.

MS. CHU: Thank you, and good morning. I am honored to participate in this morning's dialogue on alien smuggling from China, and I would like to thank everybody here today for their strong interest in this issue, which affects many thousands of people on both sides of the Pacific.

Alien smuggling a multi-billion dollar fraud built on false hopes. Beneath the empty promises lie enormous risks, unspeakable horrors, and human misery.

In the past year we have all seen migrants found dead in containers on ocean-going cargo vessels, in trucks, and most recently the two who perished horribly at sea last week.

Smugglers lure unsuspecting migrants into risking their lives on dangerous journeys only to be sold into indentured servitude. In order to pay smuggling fees as high as 60,000 U.S. dollars, migrants and their families borrow from smuggling syndicates and become easy prey for violent criminal gangs.

I have been fortunate to serve as the officer in charge of the INS sub-office in Guangzhou, China, which has jurisdiction over immigration issues in southeastern China. This region includes Fujian Province, where many of the migrants who have been intercepted come from. I have made more than 20 trips to Fuzhou, and have spent many hours listening to local officials present their perspectives on illicit migration. While we may not always see the same causes or same solutions, we all agree that alien smuggling exploits and victimizes intending migrants and their families. Even more importantly, we agree that international cooperation is essential to combatting alien smuggling. The Chinese government has implemented strong measures to prevent illegal departure, and have prosecuted numerous smugglers. They have instituted stringent harbor controls, public information campaigns and tough laws that target smuggling organizers. However, human trafficking continues to be a lucrative, criminal enterprise that spans the globe, disrupting and deterring illicit migration requires strong commitment and international cooperation at every level.

As the officer in charge of the INS sub-office in Beijing, I look forward to working closely with Chinese officials, Embassy colleagues, and the diplomatic community and INS colleagues around the globe to counter alien smuggling, migrant trafficking and related immigration crimes. Again, I am delighted to be here. Thank you very much for allowing me to participate. And I am eager to hear everyone's views on this important topic.

MS. LILLY: Well, we certainly have a lot of ground to cover. So let's welcome our participants in Beijing, Shenyang, Guangzhou and Hong Kong. I want to remind questioners to identify yourself -- and please keep your questions as brief as possible.

Beijing, please go ahead with your questions. Beijing, go ahead please.

Q. Hello -- (inaudible). I just heard your opening statements, and saw
the videoclips you showed us, and those were terrible, terrible pictures. We share the same experience. We agree with what you have told us about. As Chinese officials we have devoted a lot of effort to stop the smuggling business. And now our law and our regulations -- now we have strengthened our punishment to those people who smuggled and also punishment for the snakeheads. And so I can say that our punishment for the snakeheads is probably more serious in the whole world. And also in order to fight the alien smuggling, that would depend on international cooperation. And in Beijing we have a very good experience in cooperation -- in 1999 in Shanghai, successfully attacked the illegal smuggling activities, and we have achieved much. That was one good cooperation between us. I hope that in the future that we will have more of this type of cooperation, and in addition for attacking the illegal smuggling for those very focused places, like such as in the coastal area. We also take very effective methods. Now, we have put a lot of effort into doing this work, and there are still very complicated reasons for those people wanting to smuggle into the United States, and some may involve the international smuggling gangs. And this in the future that we need to further cooperate with each other in order to fight this group.

And I hope that also the U.S. can work with us in policy. To give you a very simple example -- that for a new -- to capture all those illegal aliens, please do not keep part of them in the United States -- send all of them, return all of them back to China. So do not allow any of them to stay in the United States legally, because otherwise they will serve as an example for those illegal smugglers that the United States is not a haven for illegal aliens. Another thing is that we should have a right channel for people to immigrate to the U.S., because now the time waiting for the visa is very long -- that's one problem. So those people when they have been smuggled into the United States, and they will be forced to work in the sweatshops. And we would like to know whether they will be able to take the normal channels so that they would gain their labor permit to work legally. So what kind of conditions they can apply for, the work permit, so they don't have to be exploited by those snakeheads and they don't have to take their lives in risk.

MR. CHAPARRO: There's a number of instances where people can come to the U.S. illegally -- and I guess you had sort of a multi-part question, and I will start with the beginning where you talked about when we intercept a load of smuggled migrants. It's really -- we keep some of them here, we deport some of them. And we need international efforts to control those.

When smugglers in the Fujian Province or any other part of China start a load of migrants to be shipped to the United States, several countries may be involved, and international cooperation truly is necessary. There may be stopovers in other Asian countries while they away travel documents, or a ship may go straight from China to Central America; and in Central America they may be handed off to other parts of the smuggling syndicate in those countries, will transit north through Mexico. So clearly if we are going to combat this problem on a global scale, we do need cooperation of several governments. And we are pleased with efforts that we have seen with China thus far, and we are looking forward to working in that type of relationship in the future on other cases.

MS. LILLY: There was also the question about the visa problem taking it too long to get a visa. Can anyone address that?

MR. CHAPARRO: The United States, like many other countries, has many, many people wanting to get in, and there are legal channels for coming to the United States. Depending on the types of visa that someone is applying for, it can be almost immediate for their entry -- for example, if they marry a United States citizen. Or it can be a longer term type of a wait if they have a distant relative in the United States who is able to petition for them. And in some instances where someone has skilled labor, they can come to work very quickly in the United States on a non-immigrant visa that will permit them to work in the United States. So there are many channels to come.

MS. LILLY: Any other comments? Go ahead, Beijing, with your next question please.

Q. Hello. I am the director of the border office of the entry and exit
office in Beijing. It's very honored that we can meet with you -- because we are all friends already, especially now the Chinese new year is right around the corner. So I would like to send my greeting to you.

In the past year, as a staff at the Chinese border, we have been put in efforts in attacking all the illegal activities in China. And my colleagues also introduced some of the law and the regulations of China, and also we have also introduced some of our positions, that we can say the Chinese government is firmly against the alien smuggling. So we have taken all these measures to effectively attack these smuggling activities.

As staff, as director of this office, we are taking -- continuously taking measures to deal with this problem. And I know that our colleagues, counterpart colleagues, also know that we often check whether their passport is valid, and whether their visas to the countries they are going to is valid. And also this we are doing on behalf of the countries we are going to. This is very different from -- it's very rare in comparison to other countries. But we are asking very much of our people. They not only have to recognize the passport of the different countries; they also have to recognize the visas of those different countries. So we have gained a lot of support of different governments.

And last year we have sent letters to embassies to tell them to give us samples of visas. And they have provided us with that. And also we have as a system we have introduced that to our -- so that we can control our traveler numbers. So that was easier for us to verify the true or the false of the documents. So we are better equipped now.

And also now we have -- in every port we have an office that was verified -- the (forged?) documents. So that's the second thing of our improvements.

And, secondly, as we have explained our effort of checking those passes -- and also we have more restrictions, because some of the people who come into China -- who are coming back to China -- when we find out that they actually had been smuggled out of the country of China, and then come back with a valid passport, then we will try to control those people.

So because our going out of country inflation is very severe, so it's very impossible -- it's very hard for those people, for them to go out of a country. But sometimes if they do go off to other countries, but they will go through the laws of other countries, and then try to get those illegal passports. So in this respect we have to do more research and studies of this effect, and also hope that our foreign counterparts, that we can exchange all that information that we have.

Another thing is that we are going to -- we are now establishing the history of verifying the documents. Also, we went to the United States, that we heard you have a very a staunch system there, and it's very good for verifying the documents. We think that's a very good idea. So now we are now looking at establishing the history of verifying the documents. So we hope that by building this history file that we will have better analyzed and also studied the documents. We hope that in the future if we have any chance, that we can go to the U.S. to look at the files, your history files.

Another thing is that we noticed that because our severe inspection that in our -- and that's in airports. We noticed they have something called "boarding pass switch." So our American colleagues have warned us about that. So this is for them to avoid being checked. So this is a new trend of illegal activities. So now we have -- we have strengthened our efforts in checking -- spot checking and random checking of all those travelers.

And another thing is we have taken to improve our technology. For example, a video camera -- so that an airport and a port harbor -- that we have better control of it. So that we can say that last year, within the 800 airports and ports, and we have inspected people -- more than 4,000 important that have fraudulent documents. And also, we also spotted a lot of foreigners who came to Taiwan -- came to China with fraudulent documents. And so those foreigners who came to China with illegal documents and tried to go out of China to other countries. So in Guangzhou we have allowed people holding the Sweden people, those people originally from Afghanistan -- and they were going to go to the U.S.

And also another thing the snakeheads -- they have intervened with a lot of activities, especially the international smuggling gangs. So it seems that our job is getting tougher and tougher. So we will see that more and more foreigners are helping the Chinese people to smuggle out of the country. So we were thinking that they are a lot of international organizations -- those groups are in Mongolia, Korea and other countries as well.

So, for example, in last December, in Shum (ph), an airport, we found that one American provided the boarding pass for one Chinese. Now, we realize that attacking illegal smuggling -- it's not only one country's problem, it needs an international effort. And it also needs all the INS's of all countries to work together, especially to exchange information -- especially those information about cases -- big cases. So in this respect we hope that we have established a very good relationship with U.S. INS. So we hope that in the future we will continue this trend of cooperation so that we will achieve more in attacking the alien smuggling. So thank you very much.

MS. CHU: Well, thank you. And from this side of the Pacific, very warmest wishes for the new year and for the upcoming spring festival holiday. I am very sorry this is the first spring festival in four years I will be missing in China.

It is a deep honor for us to be able to call you old friends as well. And I am so glad that you brought up all of the many new measures. I was told that I had a very limited amount of time to speak about the excellent work that has been done by the Chinese government. And I think that we cannot overstate enough the excellent cooperation that we received, as well as the stern measures that you have taken internally. I have seen your document verification device in Fuzhou, and I have been very impressed with the ability of your border inspection officers to examine and to apprehend travelers -- those people traveling to the United States who do not intend to return, or who are using fraudulent documents.

One of the areas that we have worked very closely on in this past year, and I hope that we will be able to again, has been with our carrier consultant training team, which went into Beijing and Shanghai, Guangzhou and Fuzhou this past year. And I believe totally we trained over a thousand people, or close to one thousand officers, along with your superiors assisting us in this training mission as well.

Boarding pass switches are happening every day all over the world. It is not necessarily a new scheme. It is a scheme that keeps coming up -- as do most alien smuggling schemes of one means or another, be that boats or using fraudulent documents. You are absolutely right that international cooperation is the only way that we can address this issue.

Jim spoke a few minutes ago about how a boat can go through many transit countries, and I am sure he would be happy to talk about how that is equally true for people who would then show up at our ports of entry, at our airports.

MR. CHAPARRO: It is true. We see that, again, smuggling syndicates are very sophisticated. Over the last several years, the U.S. immigration service has significantly built up our efforts along the Southwest border of the United States, and our ports of entry. And what that has caused the smugglers to do is to become increasingly sophisticated in the methods that they use to try to bring people into the United States. So things such as boarding pass switches, very sophisticated counterfeit documents, counterfeit visas, are all trends that we are seeing large increases in. So to the extent that we can work together with China, as well as other countries who are affected by this -- I think it benefits all of us.

MS. CHU: And, Jack, you were instrumental in that cooperative case with Shanghai last year. I was wondering if you would be able to expand a little bit on what our friends in Beijing have already mentioned.

MR. LIN: Last year in September I was in Shanghai on business, and I got a message -- I got a phone call actually from the people there telling me that they had intercepted -- there was a report coming right off the network saying that they had intercepted some fake documents -- immigration documents -- at the Hongqiao Airport in Shanghai, and they were about to go to the United States -- that was their plan. And after they got in touch with me, we started to design a plan. We decided to design a plan for action, and I notified the international airport in Los Angeles -- I notified LAX, telling them that there were three people that were going to be providing fake information. And so I told those people working at the LAX airport to wait for them to come over, and then those people did get out of Shanghai -- they did get out of Shanghai very smoothly, and then they got into LA, and then the people at the airport in LA were looking for them. And then as far as I know, the result was that they were not able to -- at the end, they were not able to meet those people. They were not able to find the people who were meeting the plane, that is. But then they were later intercepted by the Shanghai authorities who were anti-smuggling.

So what happened was that the case got turned over to the LA office there, because it seemed like they were Vietnamese who have now American passports. And they are actually later on, in the process of investigating this case. But right now some time has passed, but it's been quite a long time, because it takes a while to investigate the case right now. At that time, when I was visiting Shanghai, also there was one of the deputy directors from the LA bureau was there. They brought it up with him too. They talked about it with him, and he went back to LA, and he talked to the investigation department there, and he asked them what had been going on. And as far as I know, the case is still under investigation. That's basically the situation as I know it.

MS. CHU: Thank you. Just to wrap up, our former immigration commissioner, Doris Meissner, led a delegation of senior immigration officials to China, and one of the areas that they did visit -- in addition to Beijing, Shanghai and Fuzhou, Guangzhou -- was the border-crossing point into Hong Kong. And they too were very impressed with the efforts of the exit-entry administration, the inspections division in their work on controlling China's borders.

MS. LILLY: Thank you. Thank you, Beijing. Now we move to Shenyang. Shenyang, please go ahead.

Q. Hello. Hi, everyone. I am -- (inaudible) -- from the -- (inaudible) -- Province, and I know that the United States government has been taking up a lot of actions to go -- to counter this smuggling of people and its illegal immigration. But right now what I would also like to talk about is legal immigration, and how to guarantee that people who legally should go are able to go. And I also would like to talk about these immigration companies that are approved and what they are doing. They actually are doing H1 visas to get to the United States legally. But a lot of people try to get the visa and are not able to get the visa that they should legally be getting. So that's a problem. It should be a legal H1 visa, and they aren't getting clear answers on why they are not able to get the visa -- that's the first issue.

The second issue is that if everyone who goes through the legal channels and then immigrates, and then they should be able to unite with their family members. I would like to talk about this issue, because there are some Chinese citizens who go through the legal process -- they get an H1 visa, then they are working in the United States for about a year. And then it happens that their wife is not able to go to the United States and live or see their husbands. They are not able to get a visa to go visit their husbands. And so they want me to talk to you a little bit here tonight about why this happens and how it can happen to make them be able to unite with their spouses as quick as possible. Thank you very much.

MS. LILLY: Okay, would you like to take that one, Mr. Chaparro?

MR. CHAPARRO: I think you highlighted a number of problems. Certain types of visas are subject to numerical caps that once that ceiling is reached we are not able to issue any visas in that category. And part of the difficulty there of course is that there are many more -- in many instances there are many more applications filed then there are visas available for people to come to the United States.

As you may or may not be aware, immigration law in the United States is very complex. I think it's probably one of the most complex types of laws that this country has -- and the laws are continually changing. Certain types of -- in referencing the incidence where someone may wish to reunite with their family, certain types of visas you are allowed to adjust status from one category to another. Other times you are not able to. Sometimes if you come under a sponsorship of a particular company they may terminate that sponsorship after a period of time, which leads the immigrant inside the United States either looking for another way to adjust status or have to return back to their country.

Reuniting families obviously is something that is very important, so long as the immigration channels are legal. And in some instances that's easier than others -- just depending on the type of classification that people are intending to come to the United States under, or what the familiar relationship is.

MS. CHU: To follow up on Jim's excellent comment here, to clarify also the role of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, we do not issue visas at our overseas posts. The Immigration and Naturalization Service adjudicates applications and petitions for immigration benefits. The H1, as Jim mentioned, is subject to numerical caps. It is also a non-immigrant visa; it is not an immigrant visa where someone is automatically entitled to permanent residence. But in fact we are not in the business of visa issuance.

MS. LILLY: More questions please, Shenyang. Go ahead, Shenyang, with more questions.

Q. Hello. My name is Li Chow (ph), and I from the -- (inaudible) -- Academy of Social Sciences. I am in charge of exchanges. First of all, I would like to say to all of you officials -- I would like to thank you very much. I very much appreciate the U.S. authorities and all of its efforts in countering illegal immigration. The question I have is what about the normal academic exchanges between the two sides, because that's what I am involved in. A lot of times people go there to participate in international activities or other international exchanges, academic exchanges, et cetera, et cetera. There is a set of procedures that they have to go through and there is a lot of time -- and that often is very ineffective. What happens is with a lot of our friends, if we want to invite them, our American friends, to come to China, they can get all their documents and everything in order quickly, and get here quickly. But the Chinese -- it takes much longer to get everything in order, and that is something that affects academic exchanges between China and the United States. So I would like to know is in the face of such a problem, what can we do to try to speed up and try to solve this problem as soon as possible? Thank you.

MS. LILLY: Ms. Chu?

MS. CHU: Thank you for your question. I am deeply sympathetic to the concerns of everyone that wishes to travel; and, in particular, academics who are traveling for academic exchanges.

Again, however, I must defer to our State Department colleagues who, as I understand it, are with you there in Beijing, Shenyang, Guangzhou and Hong Kong. International exchange programs for academics is actually a program of the Public Affairs Section now of the State Department, formerly handled by the U.S. Information Service. Thank you.

MS. LILLY: Shenyang, do you have more questions? We are going to Guangzhou now. Go ahead, Guangzhou.

Q. Hello. I come from one of the magazines in Guangzhou. My name is -- (inaudible) -- and I would like to ask a question. As far as you know, these illegal immigrants that are coming from China, when compared with illegal immigrants from other countries, are there more, are there less? And also, what are their differences and similarities?

And then the other thing is that I know that there have been a lot of officials that have been trained in how to attack these problems in these areas, and I would just like to say that in cooperation between China and the United States, what are some specific methods we could take up? And the other thing is right now in the United States, when you look at the illegal immigrants that came from China, about roughly how many of them are there, and how much does the United States government know about them? And the other thing is: What is the policy of the United States government towards them? Thank you very much.

MR. CHAPARRO: That's a big question --

Q. Questions.

MR. CHAPARRO: -- questions -- actually several. I think your first question was referring to are there more or less migrants, Chinese migrants, as opposed to other nationalities. I think that the Chinese migrants are actually growing in number. But in terms of overall illegal immigration to the United States, I think our largest problem is from some of the countries to the immediate south of us, and I just think that's because the passage for them tends to be much easier.

Your question referencing specific methods to cooperate -- there's a lot of things that we can do. I think first and foremost would probably be in the information sharing, particularly when it comes to organized smuggling syndicates. Every nationality that we see smuggling there is always what we call a higher echelon group who is engaged in the more sophisticated smuggling, and those are the ones that tend to be the biggest problems for us. And to the extent we can share information and cooperative efforts with those types of investigations, I think would be beneficial for both countries.

MS. LILLY: There was also a question about illegal Chinese in this country. How many are there about? How does the United States police them, if at all?

MR. CHAPARRO: That's a difficult question, because the very fact that they entered the United States illegally, oftentimes we won't have a record of them in any way, shape or form.

MS. LILLY: The ones who are allowed to stay? Some are allowed to stay?

MR. CHAPARRO: I don't have specific statistics regarding numbers of Chinese migrants in the United States.

MS. LILLY: Go ahead with your next question.

Q. Hello. I am -- (inaudible) -- Guangzhou magazine. I am -- (inaudible). I have read an article that in the U.S. whether illegal aliens, or if you are an illegal alien, as long as you can pay for the expensive legal fees there will be professional lawyers to work for you, and it's very successful to obtain the legal documents. Otherwise if you are very poor then you only have to wait for deportation. Is that right?

MS. CHU: I will let Jim do a much more expansive answer. But one of the things that I hope that Jim will address is the fact that we do in fact prosecute immigration attorneys who engage in fraud, and who engage in assisting clients to procure immigration benefits by fraud.

MR. CHAPARRO: What we are seeing more and more of, unfortunately, is the fact that immigration lawyers, and certainly not as a whole, but there are some unscrupulous lawyers who really prey on migrants attempting to come to the United States. And they really prey on their desperation. And this is another way that migrants are often victimized when they come to the United States, because if they get here, and even for example if they want to legally adjust their status so that they can stay here permanently, oftentimes they will deal with lawyers who will take advantage of that situation, and sometimes charge them thousands of dollars to file a simple application that would cost, if the migrant were to file it by themselves, it may cost less than $100 to file. So there are also a lot of very good lawyers practicing immigration law at very reasonable fees, and there's also a number of what we call non-governmental organizations, or NGOs in the United States who help migrants who may not have the means to pay for expensive legal fees.

MS. CHU: One of the great tragedies is that migrants who have been smuggled to the United States, and are under the control of criminal smuggling gangs, have no means to access some of those very inexpensive or oftentimes free community services that are available through the non-governmental organizations or through the voluntary agencies. They can't even ask the questions.

And as for using an unscrupulous immigration attorney, all that really does is delay the inevitable. But, more importantly, it again fuels a global criminal enterprise. I recently learned of an estimate that alien smuggling is an $8 billion a year industry globally.

MS. LILLY: Guangzhou, more questions please?

Q. I would like to go back to the question that in fact in the U.S. for those illegal aliens staying in the U.S., when the government wants to deport them to their own countries, is that a very long process they have to wait for?

MR. CHAPARRO: That can vary depending on the circumstances. For example, someone who is arriving in the United States with fraudulent documents may be subject to a relatively quick process, which we call expedited removal. In many instances those types of deportations or removals can take place within a couple of days. People who are involved in criminal activity in the United States are subject to a lot fewer forms of relief from an immigration judge, and their removals tend to be much quicker. And it will vary from case to case and from country to country.

MS. LILLY: Your next question, please.

Q. According to the Hong Kong media, the economy in the developed countries, they are up and down. Therefore, when the economy is down that will force the government to do something to deport the illegal immigrants. And for those illegal immigrants they earn less wages compared to those legal immigrants. So for those Western countries where it is beneficial to their labor markets, then they will close their eyes to the illegal immigrants when they need them. However, when they don't need those illegal immigrants they will just want to deport them. How do you view this problem?

MS. CHU: The Immigration and Naturalization Service has had a long-standing program, previously known as employer sanctions, work site enforcement, interior enforcement -- this has been a program that has been in existence for many, many years, and it doesn't fluctuate with the economic climate. It's a program where companies are -- documents of corporations, businesses, are reviewed to ensure compliance with the Immigration and Nationality Act.

I'm glad though that you mentioned the issue of economic development, because as other countries continue to grow, and there's increasing opportunities, especially in China, I understand that there are more and more opportunities for people coming back to China, and for people who have every opportunity to go abroad for travel or for business or for study who actually choose to stay there, because they believe that their greatest opportunities are in China.

Would you like to speak any more about the work site enforcement issue? I know it's an area that Mr. Chaparro is multi-talented, and at one point he also ran that program.

MR. CHAPARRO: Work site enforcement is a program that we have in the United States where the Immigration and Naturalization Service inspects the work force of companies in the United States to make sure that people working at that company have the proper authorization, or are eligible to work in the United States. This has always been a high priority of the INS since the law was enacted in 1986, and I think regardless of economic conditions in the U.S. will continue to be the high priority of our enforcement efforts.

MS. LILLY: More questions please.

Q. Hello -- (inaudible) -- Guangzhou. The question I want to ask is as far as I know in the U.S. and in European countries there are a lot of illegal aliens who will go to those countries, and they will apply for asylum and to become legal immigrants there in those countries. And many countries, including the U.S., maybe supply those residency permits for those more famous dissidents. So then they will provide an opportunity for those people who want to be smuggled into those countries, an illusion that they -- as long as they submit a political asylum then they will be able to stay in those countries. So I would like to know if the U.S. always provides the asylum to the Chinese immigrants.

Another thing is that is has the U.S. -- that is, that the U.S. has the figure of those Chinese illegal aliens in the U.S.?

MR. CHAPARRO: I can answer that. The first part of your question -- do we always grant asylum to Chinese migrants? -- and the answer is clearly no. Over the last several years I think our asylum laws have become increasingly stricter. It's more difficult for people to present their cases and their claims. The burden of proof in asylum procedures lies with the intending immigrants. So in essence they must prove to the U.S. authorities that they are qualified for asylum. One of the problems that we see, however, is that the snakeheads in their I guess ever-more sophisticated ways of bringing people to the U.S., they will actually coach the migrants very rigorously on what types of things they need to say during their asylum interview. What may happen at this initial interview is that the person may have a good what we call prima facie case, or a good story upfront that would make it appear so as they are qualified. But as we look deeper into the cases, we find out that a large number of them may have very similar stories, because they were smuggled by the same smuggling syndicate, and those claims are eventually denied.

And what's unfortunate for the migrants is that if they file a fraudulent application with the Immigration Service, they may be subject to a -- and an informal determination is made that they filed a false claim -- they may be subject to being barred permanently from ever coming back legally to the United States. So the fact that they lied during an asylum process may make it more difficult for them, if they ever have the opportunity to come here in the future.

MS. CHU: In fact, asylum has only been granted in 14 percent of all cases. This is again for Chinese applicants. Only 14 percent of asylum claims were actually granted by asylum officers in the United States I would say within the last two years, since 1998.

Also, in addition to what Jim has said about how if you should lie on an application for any immigration benefit, including asylum, you may face a permanent bar to immigration, no matter how valid your circumstances may change and become. This also undermines our legal immigration policy. We have a very generous policy, and asylum issues are a very small portion of our overall immigration program. And fraudulent efforts, or efforts to take advantage of this, only make it harder for those bona fide applicants.

MS. LILLY: Well, as we approach the top of the hour, we are going to have to say good-bye to Guangzhou. We want to thank you for participating in today's program.

Now, we are going to be moving on now to Hong Kong. Your questions please? Hong Kong, your questions please? (Technical difficulties.) Apparently we are having some technical difficulty, and I have to say that I notice that a number of the questions we have been getting so far has been about legal immigration and the difficulties that some people are facing. Can we talk about that just a little bit? I know that's a State Department issue, but you are also involved in that as well. And maybe we could get Mr. Lin in here to talk about that too -- legal immigration. Can you speak to that, sir?

MR. LIN: Just like I said, there are many legal ways to come to the U. S. There are family unions, and there are work immigrants. It would probably take a little bit longer time, but you have to first of all find an employer -- someone who wants to employ you, and they will apply for it. And after it's been granted, then our office will notify the local consulate and visa office, and they will notify you to apply for a visa. Just like my colleague has said, the U.S. immigration law is a very complicated law. And just for labor immigration -- there are many kinds of labor immigration. Some called high tech or special talented, and some categories are for not so skilful people. So there are many kinds of labor immigration, many categories of it. So it's going to take a long time to discuss every one of them. Let me put it very simply that there is something called H1 -- that's for the skilful technical people -- some people that the U.S. needs. And those people, applicants, they can find an employer in the U.S. and the employer will file the application that this such kind of technician, that we really need those people, and that we have to introduce them from abroad. So they will file those applications to the office, and then they will, with the approved application, they will send the approved application to the local U.S. consulate, and they will ask the consulate applicant to get a visa.

As for the family immigration -- and there are many categories as well. For example, there is a spouse for the American citizen, and also their children not yet 21 years old. And usually the family immigration, they are usually the spouses or the children of those permanent residents of the U.S. And the parents of the U.S. citizen, they can also apply for the immigration in the U.S. as well.

MS. LILLY: Thank you, sir. Hong Kong is ready. Hong Kong, please go ahead with your questions. Hong Kong?

MS. CHU: Actually a statistic -- some of our participants in this dialogue might be interested to know that last year I believe the consulate in Guangzhou, which issues immigrant visas for everyone coming through China, issued nearly 40,000 immigrant visas to Chinese citizens to come to the United States, and issued about 35,000 non-immigrant visas -- this is in consulate Guangzhou alone. And for Embassy Beijing and consulates in Shenyang, Shanghai and Chengdu, also issued immigrant visas.

MS. LILLY: I believe we are going to try Beijing. Go ahead, Beijing.

Q. Beijing, are you ready? (Technical difficulties.) All right, we are still having some technical difficulties. We are trying to get Hong Kong up, we are trying to get Beijing, but we'll get to that in a second. We were talking about the number of people who are given immigrant visas.

Once again, because of the length of time it takes, some people don't want to wait that length of time. It is very expensive, is it not, for people within China -- and other countries as well -- to pay for this illegal immigration.

MR. CHAPARRO: That's one of the problems we really see. For example, a typical Chinese alien smuggler may charge anywhere from 30 to 60 thousand U. S. dollars.

MS. LILLY: For one person?

MR. CHAPARRO: For one person. And in a country such as China, where the per capita income is substantially less than that, the difficulty that you run into is people actually enter into an indentured servitude or slavery contract in order to pay off their smuggling debt. So they will come to the United States, and they will essentially sell themselves into a contract working in a sweatshop, or something even more terrible that we frequently see is people being forced into prostitution or selling drugs to pay off their smuggling debt. The gangs who are associated with the alien smuggling are absolutely ruthless in enforcing the debt repayment on the smuggling. And oftentimes if the migrant himself is unable to pay the debt, there will be retribution against their family back in China.

MS. LILLY: I think that Hong Kong is ready. Hong Kong, go ahead with your questions please.

Q. Hi, I come from Phoenix TV, and I am a reporter there. I have a couple of questions. First of all, in Hong Kong there has been a lot of illegal immigrants coming from China. They come in the containers from Hong Kong, and then they get to the United States that way. It's happened many times. I would like to know what you in the United States think of Hong Kong. Do you think that Hong Kong is the station where people go to illegally immigrate to the United States from China? Because in the past few years I have heard like 14 percent of these illegal immigrants have gotten political asylum. Is that more or less than in the past? Can you tell me? Thanks.

MS. CHU: First of all, to decouple the question, and answer the last one, I unfortunately don't have access to the full range of statistics for asylum grants in the United States or how they are worked out either annually or by nationality. Additionally, if you go back to your original question about Hong Kong as a transit area, yes, there are people who do leave mainland China and go to Hong Kong. But they also leave mainland China and go throughout Southeast Asia. Hong Kong is only one of many, many transit countries. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a country that has not been used in some way shape or form as a transit or way station for illegal migration. It is not just a Hong Kong problem. However, I know that the government in Hong Kong, as well as private, for example shipping companies that handle the containers that you just mentioned, have been very vigorous in their efforts to stop the use of Hong Kong as a transit center. And certainly we are very appreciative and very much applaud those efforts.

MR. CHAPARRO: And just to add on to that, there has been a number of instances where the government of the -- the enforcement authorities in Hong Kong have provided us excellent assistance in conducting some fairly significant criminal investigations, particularly the ones that involved the deaths in Seattle recently. We received excellent cooperation from Hong Kong.

MS. LILLY: Go ahead, Hong Kong, with your next question.

Q. I would also just like to ask Mrs. Chu -- I know that you have definitely been in touch with some people from Fujian and meet them or when you see them, what is it that makes you think that these people from that province of Fujian -- what makes them want to illegally immigrate to the United States? The United States is working against this illegal immigration. There are policies in the government against it. Why do they want so badly to do that?

MS. CHU: I think that they have been misled -- deeply misled and defrauded by the smugglers who lure them with promises -- as I said before, false promises of financial gain to be had in the United States -- that the streets are paved with gold. As you know, a common Chinese term for the United States is "gold mountain," "Jin Shan," and people actually believe that. Some people maybe in earlier years have been able to immigrate to the United States. Those who immigrate legally have of course a much easier time of it -- particularly if they have excellent skills or education or are able to find good jobs, legal jobs in the United States. And they do send money back or they do come back and help their families build homes, things of that nature. But the draw is really one of illegal migration, and it is a draw by criminal smuggling organizations. It's a draw that says, Throw your lot in with us -- promise us your life in indentured servitude for maybe a shadow of a promise that for some people tragically ends on the high seas.

MS. LILLY: Go ahead, Hong Kong, with your next question.

Q. I am from Asia Weekly in Hong Kong. My name is -- (inaudible) -- and I would like to ask two simple questions. That is, first of all, the two countries -- that is, China and the United States -- they have had their meetings between Beijing and Washington saying that they very much attach importance to attacking this important. The INS in the United States and the authorities in Beijing have participated in these meetings and said that they really would like to attack illegal immigration and crack down on it. Everybody says that. But the problem is that why is it that in talking about such an issue the Americans or the Chinese brought up the idea of having a dialogue with us?

The second question is several years ago in Shanghai there was a case -- there was a smuggling ring, and they put drugs inside a whale, and when it got to San Francisco or the California coastline they found that out. And then there was a witness who testified in this case, and that witness later on wanted political asylum, and I don't know if that case has been solved or not. I heard that that case is a case that is a big impediment to the cooperation between China and the United States. That's my first question. Thanks.

MS. LILLY: Mr. Lin?

MR. LIN: I don't have the information on this case, because I am not in the investigation department. So I would like to have my colleague Jim answer that question. I think he knows more about it. And it should have said goldfish -- not a whale -- goldfish.

MR. CHAPARRO: Goldfish, okay. First of all, if it was a drug smuggling case, in all likelihood it would fall under the purview of another enforcement agencies, either the United States Customs or the Drug Enforcement Administration, or some other agency, and I don't have the specifics on that particular case so I shouldn't talk about that one.

MS. LILLY: All right. Next question please?

Q. Okay, the first question you really didn't answer. The first question was Washington and Beijing are having this dialogue, they are having these meetings. Who is the one who suggested this dialogue? Was it the U.S. side, or was it the Chinese side that decided we should have this dialogue with Hong Kong at this time?

MS. LILLY: We actually do not have the answer to that question.

MR. CHAPARRO: But I can say that regardless of which country suggested the dialogue occur, it is an important dialogue, and I think that everyone who is at the table today has said that international cooperation to combating smuggling is really key, because smuggling is a global problem, and it is a crime that transcends national borders. It transcends policies. And it really is a problem that no one country acting on their own can solve. It really needs to have cooperative efforts.

MS. CHU: Dialogue between China and the United States on all law enforcement issues, including migrant smuggling, alien smuggling, has been going on for a number of years, as has our work with Hong Kong. In fact, the Hong Kong INS office is one of the oldest of our overseas offices certainly in the Bangkok district and the Asia district. And we only recently in 1997 had established INS offices in Guangzhou and in Beijing. But, as Jim says, this is a very important dialogue that we have with many countries all around the globe in many forums, and we are delighted to be able to do that.

MS. LILLY: Hong Kong, your next question please.

Q. Okay, hello. The next question is this -- also from -- (inaudible) -- of Asia weekly. The question is that there are many, many people from the Fuzhou area, even in -- (inaudible) -- Fujian, after they come to the United States they come up with all kinds of reasons to apply for political asylum -- like the one-child policy or Falun Gong or other types of related type reasons. What I would like to ask from Jim is according to the statistics from the U.S. INS, what reason is given most by these people who are applying for political asylum? Do they use the one-child policy the most, or do they use Falun Gong the most, or do they use other political reasons or other reasons? Can you tell me?

MR. CHAPARRO: We don't track statistics by a reason that someone applies,
so I couldn't give you specific information related to which story or which reason is used for asylum.

MS. CHU: Jack, you were an asylum officer before you went overseas. Perhaps you would like to talk about some of the stories that you encountered.

MR. LIN: According to my experience working with the political asylum cases -- I don't have exact statistics, but I had experiences that I can tell you about. About four years ago they used reasons such as the one-child policy most often. Later on they came to think that the one-child policy was not too feasible, so they changed it to religious reasons. And then from religious reasons they thought -- all right, that won't work too well, so let's change it to Falun Gong -- that was the most recent one. As far as I know, using Falun Gong seems to be one that is more common these days.

These statistics come from what I notice from the immigration officials in the Los Angeles port area. Most of them come from the Fujian area, and most of them are in the age range of about 18 to 22 -- within that age range basically. And a lot of them at the same time are females, and they say that they are practitioners of Falun Gong and that -- maybe they don't have any documents or they have falsified documents, and that's how they enter the United States. And then the political asylum reason is Falun Gong.

MS. LILLY: Hong Kong, your next question please.

Q. I come from TBB, which is a cable station in Hong Kong. I would like to ask -- after the case that happened with the containers in England, and where people died in that case, we seem to find that there were a lot of people related to the people died that are in Fujian, in that area. And a lot of their family members -- they went to the snakeheads' houses, and they tried to get those snakeheads to explain to them what happened -- but the snakeheads were gone -- they couldn't find them, and there was a really rich snakehead, and he had a huge house, a big house, and his house was right near the local police station -- it was like two streets away from the local police station -- like two streets away from a lot of these government offices and local government, and a lot of these snakeheads they found out were something that everybody knew -- all the local people knew they were snakeheads -- they knew that they were doing these things. So I'd like to ask all of you in the process of your investigations did you find any places in Fujian where there were really a lot of cases occurring where the situation was really serious? Did you find that a lot of the local officials were actually working together with the snakeheads or collaborating with them?

MS. CHU: Well, first of all, we don't conduct investigations in China. It's not part of our mandate. It isn't part of our purview. We do work closely with officials in engaging officials in dialogue on this issue have found it to be extremely cooperative. Perhaps Jim would like to talk about some of the cases that we have conducted in the United States side.

MR. CHAPARRO: And without I guess discussing specifics of China in general , one of the methods that alien smugglers try and use is to corrupt public officials, whether or not -- the case you referenced was in England, so I am not -- I don't know any of the details of that case. But it's a method that's commonly used by alien smugglers, although I must say that we do have very good cooperation with the Chinese government in conducting these types of investigations.

MS. CHU: You know, I think it's also important that we take note here that when things appear to be going well, when it seemed that the migrants were going to make it to either England or any other country, things looked pretty good. But once things fell apart or people died, or did not reach their destinations -- and of course their relatives are tremendously upset and guffawed. This just shows you the kind of trickery and deceit that smugglers will engage in order to prey on people, ad the level of victimization, the extent to which they deceive their victims.

MS. LILLY: Well, thank you, Hong Kong. We are going to go to Shenyang now -- go back to Shenyang. Go ahead with your questions.

Q. Hi. I want to continue with the question there about work-related immigration. I would like to ask that after getting the approval from the U.S. INS, and after all the materials have been delivered to the embassy, can you get the visa? And if you don't get the visa, what is the reason for that? Can you tell me? Thank you.

MS. CHU: Again, visa issuances is not something that the Immigration and Naturalization Service is in charge of, but is handled by the State Department through consular officers who are actually the ones who adjudicate visa applications. There is an immigration application or a petition which forms the basis for a visa application, which then provides you the opportunity to apply for lawful admission into the United States. That's a system of checks and balances, and this particular question really does fall with another agency.

MS. LILLY: Your next question, please. I believe we are going to Beijing. Go ahead, Beijing. Beijing, go ahead please. (Technical difficulties.) Okay, once again we are having some difficulty with Beijing, and we will be getting back to them in a moment.

Can we follow up on the question that was asked earlier regarding the asylum question? Mr. Lin, you were answering that. We don't have -- you said we don't keep statistics on what kinds of things people say, but asking for political asylum, is that always suspect? Is there something wrong when someone asks for political asylum?

MR. LIN: No, because as far as what I have seen myself -- the cases I've seen myself, most of them are not true -- are not political refugees -- they are economic refugees. They know that America has political asylum. They know there is such a way to go about it. They know about that. They know that they just have to say "asylum," that one word, and then they can stay in the United States, as is sort of a judicial process. As a matter of fact, they are really economic refugees, but and at the same time their goal to come to the United States is to make money and to have a better life, and then in the near future to possibly get amnesty from the United States if there is amnesty, and then get all their relatives to come over to the United States to reunite with them.

But actually in reality the reasons that they bring up, that they give, you could say are -- they don't even exist. They aren't there. They have gone through a process of the snakeheads teaching them what to say, and they have been coached by them, and they don't have much knowledge of the situation. They don't even really know what the word "asylum" means in reality -- they just know the words. They don't even know what it means. They don't even know what it's for. They have just been told and coached by these snakeheads, by the people in these immigration smuggling rings saying that after you come to the United States, if someone catches you, say you are here for political asylum -- that's the reason. And when they ask you the real reason, you just say that you wanted to have more kids, but you weren't allowed to, and so, "They wouldn't let me" -- and so -- and if that doesn't work, then say it was political persecution. If that doesn't work, say Falun Gong. Say, oh, you practice Falun Gong. And the government has been trying to crack down on me, has been doing things like that. So in other words there is a whole set of things that they have to say. It's like they've memorized it, like memorizing some things to say.

As far as I have seen, the cases I know about, basically maybe nine out of ten cases are pretty much the same thing -- pretty much like as if the same person had taught them -- they are saying the same things.

MS. LILLY: All right, now, I also want to talk about the horrible conditions that these people have brought over in. There was the question of the case in England, and how the relatives went to the snakeheads' home and they couldn't find them. Doesn't word get back throughout the villages of China that says this is -- we don't have $60,000 to spend, and you will be in servitude -- doesn't anybody believe that?

MR. CHAPARRO: I think the story that I -- and I have asked the same question to you that I just heard from you to people that I have actually interviewed, and a lot of times it's a face-saving situation where if they come to the United States with these grandiose hopes and dreams of being able to succeed and send money back to their families -- if that doesn't happen, and they've been duped by a smuggler, or they have got themselves into a terrible situation, oftentimes they are afraid to tell their families back at home the situation they have actually encountered.

MS. LILLY: Because they have borrowed heavily?

MR. CHAPARRO: They've borrowed heavily, and they've really lost face. And in some instances they may in retrospect feel that they have been duped and they are embarrassed to say that.

MS. LILLY: All right, I believe that we have Hong Kong available now for a question. Go ahead, Hong Kong.

Q. I come from -- (inaudible) -- and I would like to continue asking the questions here. Recently in Fujian they had a provincial level party secretary who was kicked out of office because as far as we know he was from Changle (ph) -- that's the place where he's from -- and that's a place where a lot of people illegally immigrate from. And I have heard that in Fujian he had too much of a relationship going on with those snakeheads, and that was bad for the international image of Fujian. Did America hear about this news, about this information?

MS. CHU: That's not something that we are prepared to comment from. Actually I have been in the U.S. for most of the last month and am not familiar with the particulars of this case. We respect China's right to handle their government however they feel appropriate.

MR. CHAPARRO: And it is my understanding that the Chinese government has become very serious on dealing with illegal immigration. So if this did happen recently, it's probably part of that effort.

MS. LILLY: Go ahead, Hong Kong, with more questions.

Q. Hi. I come from -- (inaudible) -- newspaper, and I would like to ask a couple of questions of all of you. The first question is a minute ago someone was saying that Hong Kong actually is a place where people illegally immigrate from China and then to the United States -- it's sort of a transit place. So what I would just like to know is that of the people that you intercepted, how many of them are coming from Hong Kong or transited through Hong Kong? Are these statistics, and has the situation been improved lately?

Because a minute ago you were just saying that 14 percent of these illegal immigrants get political asylum. And I would like to ask is -- I would like to know if that is a real number or not. And the other thing is: Is Falun Gong a real reason to get political asylum? Can you answer that question? In the past, how many people have gotten political asylum as a result of the fact that they were part of Falun Gong and used that as a reason? Thanks.

MS. CHU: Okay, first of all, to clarify the 14 percent figure, it's 14 percent of people who have applied for political asylum from China who have been granted. It's 14 percent of applications received. That's not 14 percent of all illegal immigrants. I am sorry I wasn't entirely clear on that matter. In fact, we really don't have a way to know exactly how many illegal immigrants there are from any country.

To return to the original point about Hong Kong as a transit area, it is only one of literally thousands of transit points around the world, and hundreds in Asia alone. Just because somebody may transit through Hong Kong, it doesn't mean that they go directly from Hong Kong to the United States. They may transit through Taiwan, through Tokyo, through Bangkok, Vietnam, many other areas.

MS. LILLY: And the political asylum question for Falun Gong?

MS. CHU: I'm sorry, I didn't catch that --

MS. LILLY: The question was: Do people get in using religious reasons?

MS. CHU: Well, since we don't keep statistics on the reasons that are given, we really wouldn't be able to answer that right now.

MR. LIN: They do. In the past one year or so, these unofficial statistics show that they usually use this Falun Gong as the reason for political asylum, because in their idea of thinking they think it's a religion, so that's a religious reason for applying for political asylum.

MS. LILLY: Well, we have come to the end of today's program. And, I would like to thank Mr. James Chaparro, Mr. Janet Chu and Mr. Jack Lin for discussing this very important issue. I would also like to thank our participants in Beijing, Shenyang, Guangzhou and Hong Kong for joining us today. From Washington, I'm Judlyne Lilly for "Dialogue." Good day.

(end transcript)

(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)

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