Topic: Muslim Women in International Law
Guest: Dr. Azizah al-Hibri, Professor of Law, University of Richmond, Virginia
Host: Mohanned Khatib

Worldnet "Global Exchange"
United States Information Agency
Television and Film Service of Washington, D.C.

"The general notion across the board here in the United States is that Muslim women are unfortunate and are unfairly treated. And this is a misconception that has to be corrected," says Dr. Azizah al-Hibri, Professor of Law at the University of Richmond, Virginia, and the founder of Karama, Muslim women lawyers for human rights.

Dr. al-Hibri discussed Islam and the status of Muslim women in the United States and in Muslim countries in a September 29 Worldnet "Global Exchange." She also led a panel discussion on this subject at the Supreme Court September 28, where the keynote speaker was Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, the first woman appointed to the Supreme Court.

"I believe that one of the most important things that happened yesterday is that an Arab country -- in this particular case it was Tunisia -- and in the future I hope there will be other countries -- Tunisia came to the Supreme Court and extended an invitation to a judge, a female judge, to talk about this issue, and opened the door to Muslims to talk about Islam and the status of women in Muslim countries," al-Hibri said.

She said that "regardless of their political or intellectual views on Islam" the speakers at the Supreme Court session "were interested in learning about Islam, and I think this is indicative of the fact that there is not really an anti-Islamic sentiment. That's why I think our voices were heard, and hopefully, God willing, we will build bridges between us on other further understanding."

Al-Hibri said that in the United States her main focus is on Muslim women who become impoverished when their husbands divorce them after many years of marriage. Often, these women have no family or relatives in the U.S. and receive from their husbands only a very small dowry, agreed to by her parents when they married. "And here in the United States there are no institutions that can provide assistance or support or advocacy for these women who find themselves in these dire straits after they get a divorce at this late age in their life," she said.

"This situation raises many questions, and we have to answer these questions so we can preserve the rights of Muslim women under Muslim marriage contracts," she said.

Dr. al-Hibri pointed out that "Muslims suffer from problems everywhere in any country." However, she said "we have to make a distinction between the status of Muslim women in the various countries. There are some countries that provide education for women and there are other countries that do not. It's not the same across the board."

She rejected the idea of international standards regarding women's rights and said "I think the real change should come from within ... a society, not by diktat."

Al-Hibri noted that there is a movement within the United Nations to "do something regarding the status of women and suffering women in Afghanistan." While calling for improvements in Muslim women's human rights in the United States, she acknowledged that they have already begun. "I think there are some certain groups, delegations from different religions to discuss conditions of women and families and the problems faced by families and children. And I think we are mindful of these problems, and I think we are trying to make some corrections," she said.

Following is the transcript of the Worldnet:

MR. KHATIB: Dear viewers, this is Mohanned Khatib, your host, welcoming you to "Global Exchange."

Our program today will focus on women and international law. It will be a closer look at the Arab and Muslim world. That was the topic yesterday at a panel discussion here in Washington at the United States Supreme Court. The keynote speaker at the event was Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who had this to say:

JUSTICE O'CONNOR: I am very pleased to be invited to make some remarks today on a subject on which I take considerable personal interest, the legal and social status of women. And I would like to thank the ambassador and the Hannibal Club, and the President's Interagency Council on Women for providing the forum to discuss and promote women's issues.

Women from all countries have a great deal to share with each other about their own culture's experiences, successes and failures. Today, as always, women are the primary caregivers worldwide. We bear and nurture the children, we manage the household for our families, but we also work outside the home. We want and expect to have equal opportunities in business, in the professions and in public service. We want and expect to be paid as much as men for the same work.

While women have made tremendous strides and advances in this century, the process of achieving gender equality is still an ongoing one in this country and around the world. In many respects we traveled far, although we have still a way to go.

We remember the old adage that the test of every civilization is the position of women in the society.

(End videotape.)

MR. KHATIB: Justice Sandra Day O'Connor from the U.S. Supreme Court.

First of all I would like to welcome our viewers around the world and invite you to call in and participate in our discussion on women and international law, a closer look at the Arab and Muslim world. You will need to call your international operator and say that you would like to make a collect call to the United States. If you are calling with a question in Arabic, please call us at 202-205-9066. But if you are calling with a question in English, call us collect at 202-205-9001.

Joining us now to discuss our topic is Dr. Azizah al-Hibri, who led a discussion on yesterday's panel at the Supreme Court. Dr. al-Hibri is a professor of law at the University of Richmond in Virginia, and is the founder of Karama (ph), Muslim women lawyers for human rights. Dr. al-Hibri has written a book and many articles on Muslim women's rights. Thank you for joining us, and welcome to "Global Exchange."

Let's first start by talking about yesterday's panel. What are the benefits that can be achieved from these panel discussions? Is it merely an academic gathering or are there practical aspects to be gained?

DR. AL-HIBRI: I believe that one of the most important things that happened yesterday is that an Arab country -- in this particular case it was Tunisia -- and in the future I hope there will be other countries -- Tunisia came to the Supreme Court and extended an invitation to a judge, a female judge, to talk about this issue, and opened the door to Muslims to talk about Islam and the status of women in Muslim countries. Unfortunately the notion in the West about the status of women in Muslim societies is a negative one, and we have to correct it. And the only way to correct it is to talk about it. And yesterday our voices were heard at the Supreme Court, and also were heard in a wider range through C-SPAN, which will carry it to the U.S. society in general.

MR. KHATIB: Let's now go, Dr. al-Hibri, to our viewers and ask them to join us. You visited a number of Arab countries and you've spoken there. What are the subjects that are of interest to women in the Arab world in your opinion?

DR. AL-HIBRI: Actually my visit to these countries has to do with American Muslim women and the cases of divorce that happen in the United States to Muslim women who are divorced and who go to court to seek a divorce. How do the U.S. courts deal with this situation? This situation raises many questions, and we have to answer these questions so we can preserve the rights of Muslim women under Muslim marriage contracts.

When I went to other countries to ask about these problems I found that the same problems are encountered in the other Muslim countries. That is why my visit to the Arab and Muslim countries was extremely useful, because I found there are many things in common, as well as there were other specific issues that had to do with these particular countries.

MR. KHATIB: Let's go now to Arab News Network in London, ANN. Please go ahead with your question. ANN, are you with us? ANN, in London, are you on the line with us? (Technical difficulties.) It seems there are problems, but we will try a little bit later to get back in touch with them.

Dr. al-Hibri, in yesterday's lecture you mentioned that there were the mass media attending and following the discussions. How was your sense of the issues of the Arab women, how are they perceived in American society?

DR. AL-HIBRI: The comments and the speeches given and made were really (pointed ?), whether from non-Muslim Americans or from Muslims. I found out for instance that regardless of their political or intellectual views on Islam they were interested in learning about Islam, and I think this is indicative of the fact that there is not really an anti-Islamic sentiment. That's why I think our voices were heard, and hopefully, God willing, we will build bridges between us on other further understanding.

I do not want to say, however, that everything is rosy and good, because I think there are -- Muslims suffer from problems everywhere in any country, and I think we have to revisit these questions and ask ourselves whether or not these problems are -- (inaudible). Is it true our religion is specifically related? I don't think it's true, because I think Islam is a fair and just religion. There must be a misunderstanding.

It's worth noting that the women's status for Islamic and Arab Muslims is not ideal to say the least.

MR. KHATIB: Why do you think that status of Islamic women in these Islamic countries are such? For instance, today we heard that Jordan canceled some stipulations in the law regarding what's called the honor crimes -- perhaps because that we wanted to overcome the certain factors because we have to understand one important effect: If a Muslim says, I am a Muslim, that means that everything mentioned in the Koran is the basis. But anything else outside of the Koran is secondary. We do know that Islam upholds the women's rights. Where are these rights in our society? We focus on the status of women, and we had that symposium yesterday on women, because women are not the only single group that is suffering in these societies -- there is suffering across the board. I believe there are also many reasons, one of which is not -- is due to the fact that we do not go back to the roots and the basics of teaching religion. That's why when I travel to some of these countries I realize that there is some understanding -- lacking in understanding of the Arabic language, because I think some countries do not even teach -- do not understand Arabic, and where Arabic is not taught. So how can we understand Koran if I ask a sheikh or a Muslim scholar what do you think of Islam's position vis-a-vis this point. He might give us his opinions. But if we ask the question, how do you -- what do you think -- every person in -- (inaudible) -- understand Koran teachings.

MR. KHATIB: Please go ahead and pose your question. Are you with us ANN? ANN, are you with us? (Technical difficulties.) I believe we still have a communications problem, so we will continue our discussion with Dr. al-Hibri.

There are certain problems that have to do with Muslim women in Western societies, like here for example. They have special problems that Muslim women don't face in Arab society. Give us an idea about those.

DR. AL-HIBRI: I can. I don't want to say that women in the Arab world do not face these problems -- they may face them, but we either do not acknowledge them or we do not see them. But what I am focusing on right now, the main problem I am focusing on here in the United States, is that many Muslim women marry another Muslim in their country, and then they come here to the United States and they live here for many years, maybe for 30 years or 35 years, and then by that time the woman's parents will probably have died and they don't have family or relatives here in the United States. Sometimes the husbands then want to divorce their wives. So the husbands go to U.S. court and seek a divorce. They take with them their marriage contract, which provides that the women's dowry was something very, very small, which was something that the parents agreed to. So he gives the wife, the divorced wife, this very small amount of money, even though he may be wealthy and can afford to do more, and she becomes an impoverished woman. And here in the United States there are no institutions that can provide assistance or support or advocacy for these women who find themselves in these dire straits after they get a divorce at this late age in their life.

MR. KHATIB: So what are we to do? If this woman were to have the U.S. laws applied to her, she would be entitled to have the man's fortune. Is not this fairer? Is this fairer to her?

DR. AL-HIBRI: We have to study the issue and find the solution.

MR. KHATIB: I think we have remedied the technical problem, and we have ANN right now with us on the line. Please go ahead with your questions.

QUESTION: How is the image of the Muslim woman who lives under Islamic law in U.S. society?

DR. AL-HIBRI: I think that the opinion is, as far as the Muslim woman is concerned, the opinion is a wrong one. In many instances I find myself in academic gatherings, and a professor sitting beside me tells me how sorry he is about the status of Muslim women, and I tell him that the status of women and of Muslim women is not well understood.

First, I think we have to explain the status of Muslim women, and we have to make a distinction between the status of Muslim women in the various countries. There are some countries that provide education for women and there are other countries that do not. It's not the same across the board. But the general notion across the board here in the United States is that Muslim women are unfortunate and are unfairly treated. And this is a misconception that has to be corrected.

QUESTION: My second question is women's rights is one of the priorities, foremost priorities among human rights organizations, and it is supported by the governments of the Western nations. Will there be a time when women's rights will be imposed on us, just like human rights are?

DR. AL-HIBRI: I work hard not to reach that situation, to impose internationally recognized standards on any particular exercises, or in particular those countries that call for democracy should practice democracy and go by the international standards, and that dialogues should be on understanding, and we should understand again rights and opposition vis-a-vis the status of women, not only in terms of women but also in terms of men and women in general. There is no doubt that there is any reason for imposing certain standards for coercion.

QUESTION: Then how does the American public opinion understand the women's human rights in Islam?

DR. AL-HIBRI: What do you mean by that precisely?

QUESTION: In terms of theory and the different schools of thought in Islam vis-a-vis these issues.

DR. AL-HIBRI: I do not believe that Islamic societies or groupings have defined certain positions vis-a-vis the women's right. I don't think there is such universal positions. And when we talk about these rights, if we do not like an opinion of a particular group, I think we should reach out and talk to the group. And if there is any interpretation that is fair for the particular social condition of that society, I think we should open the door for a dialogue. But I need to go back and say that the stereotypes about Muslim women are the ones that stay in people's minds and enforce the general perception that Islamic women and Muslim women are suffering injustice, and I think there is a movement within the United Nations that the United Nations will do something regarding the status of women and suffering women in Afghanistan. And I think there is a restrictive movement to enforce these new resolutions on Islam. And I think we should combat such thinking, because I think the real change should come from within and come within a society, not by diktat.

In the meantime, we should also by the same talk we should also call for improvements on the front of women's human rights in the United States. I think it has already begun, and I think there are some certain groups, delegations from different religions to discuss conditions of women and families and the problems faced by families and children. And I think we are mindful of these problems, and I think we are trying to make some corrections.

QUESTION: There are psychological studies that have shown that many Americans are dissolving their marriages. Do you think that women have played a role in bringing about the failure of marriages, or are they victims of such failures?

DR. AL-HIBRI: I believe that in recent years here in the United States there has been an improvement with regard to families and marriage. Many people who refrain from making the commitment to marriage in the '80s are now getting married, and their marriages are lasting longer. What happened in the past was not something that was done by men against women, but the reason why in the past women were reluctant to commit themselves to marriage had to do with the fact -- with the perceptions that women were unfairly treated in a marriage situation. Now men and women are looking seriously into these matters and remedying them.

MR. KHATIB: Dr. al-Hibri, we have a call from Holland, from Mr. Sami (ph) in Holland.

QUESTION: Hello. What does Dr. al-Hibri think about the possibility of a Muslim man marrying more than four Muslim women?

DR. AL-HIBRI: This question does not depend on my own personal opinion, but it has to do with the interpretation of a verse from the Koran. It is known historically that interpretations of this issue have been varied, particularly with regard to the requirements of being fair and just in the treatment of the four wives. I know many Muslim scholars who did not accept this whole notion of marrying more than one wife, because they feared that they might not be able to be fair in treating more than one wife. There are many interpretations, and it is important to say that there are differences on this issue, and there are many devout Muslims who would not marry more than one woman, because they fear being unfair to them.

MR. KHATIB: We have another call -- from Sweden -- please go ahead.

QUESTION: Hello? How are you? I have a small comment to make on what Dr. al-Hibri has said. The rights of women in the Arab and Muslim world are much worse when compared to the status of women and the rights of women in the Western world. Let's consider divorce for example. Men have the right to divorce women in Muslim and Arab countries, and not women. In Islamic countries the women do not -- inherit only half of what men are entitled to inherit. Also, the polygamy laws -- men are permitted to marry more than one.

MR. KHATIB: (?) I think you mentioned these are important points -- let's focus on them, because we don't have time to mention all of them.

DR. AL-HIBRI: I won't be able to remember all of your points either. It is very important for us when we talk about Islamic laws and when we talk about what Islam says on women's rights it is important that we be well informed about what we are talking about; otherwise we make lots of mistakes.

The subject of divorce. Islam gives a woman the right to divorce her husband. She also has the right to stipulate before she gets married that she is the one who controls her destiny in the marriage situation. But what we find in application in many societies and in many countries, this law -- this right is not being given to women and is not being applied. But this is something else -- this is something that has to do with the application and with the culture. I can divorce my husband, for example, according to Islam -- I can divorce my husband any time if I want to, but that is something that is not always applied.

With regard to inheritance, unfortunately this subject is misunderstood. We are often -- we often find ourselves embarrassed to look into it. Let's first ask what the Koran say about inheritance? Does the Koran say that women inherit half of what men do? The Koran says that a sister would inherit half of what her brother inherits. Why is that? In many practical situations, women get more than men do. But the reason why there is this stipulation in the Koran has to do with the cultural and economic considerations and historical cultural factors.

The Koran actually says that what a sister receives in inheritance is pure profit for her, because a Muslim woman is not required to support herself. Every male relative is required to provide her with support. It is his duty and she is entitled to receive this support from her male relatives -- i.e., her father, her brother and her husband. That is why a man inherits twice as much as the woman inherits -- because this is not considered pure profit for him, it is considered a resource from which he has to rely upon and to use to provide support for his female relatives -- his sister and his mother.

MR. KHATIB: Now we go back to more -- let's go back and take some further questions.

QUESTION: Thank you very much. My last question is: Do you think (that it's easy?) being a Muslim woman?

DR. AL-HIBRI: Yes, in many countries we find that an educated woman has entered the labor marketplace or has become a business woman and she has proven herself, because she has many talents. But still there are some imbalances. But we do have to rely that women have particular skills and have really stood by men in the first years of Islam. And I think the women can -- do indeed take part of the -- (inaudible) -- and that's why they have to be given (a real life ?).

MR. KHATIB: We have a question from one of our viewers in Germany. Please go ahead. Do we have a viewer from Germany? I think we lost the connection with him. Dr. Azizah, let's go back to the position of women's rights from outside. Arab and Islamic women hide behind that -- (inaudible) -- and but we find that these conditions in these countries are really miserable. There are internationally recognized rights met by all nations, including Arab countries. How can we distinguish between these justifications and between the legitimate rights of non-interference?

DR. AL-HIBRI: Let me tell you something about the philosophy of Koran in terms of change. When the verses were revealed to Prophet Mohammed and the Muslims there were many -- (inaudible) -- for instance. In fact there is only one God, that there is some other social elements regarding which Islam view -- such as -- (inaudible) -- for instance, absence from drinking alcohol was also -- again, well, prohibition against drinking alcohol was a good one. That's why I think Islam was flexible in terms of change, because God understands we have to change -- you cannot change people all at once. And when change comes from outside, then it will have -- it will be counterproductive. Change has to come from within.

If women and men have or need -- they need to work hard too for their rights.

MR. KHATIB: Please go ahead.

QUESTION: Hello? I do have some observations that would hopefully end up with a question. I like what the speaker said, but Islam's interpretation of -- the interpretation Koran is from a man's perspective. But if we go back to -- (inaudible) -- you would find that he actually did not carry out some of the decisions, especially some of the punishment in Islam at the early days of Islam. But in terms of family law and the West, I would -- what your view on Islam's perception on this issue in the West -- because Islam tends to be restrictive when it comes to women's rights.

DR. AL-HIBRI: Unfortunately I did not hear the comment, but I did hear the question. I believe that the interpretation of Islam is not only male-oriented, but it is also influenced by culture. Every person who interprets the Koran relies on his own point of view and on his own culture. And in this case this applies to the men who interpret the verses of the Koran. This is self-evident. That is why we are calling upon Muslim women to improve their understanding of Islam, and so that they themselves can provide their own independent opinions and fatwahs. And this is something that is available to them and something they can do.

I think the question is quite simple. There are those who say that any jurisprudence, whether we are talking about -- regardless of what we are talking about, which country we are talking about. For example, here in the United States Islamic jurisprudence -- and the United States is now an Islamic country, because it has six million Muslims in it -- so we can have independent opinions -- issues here in the United States. There are certain things that will not change, that are constant, and there are other things that will change. El-shaffii (ph) for example had his own school of interpretation; but when he went to Cairo he moved from his original place and went to another society, he changed some of his interpretations. This does not mean that there are radical differences in the ideology, but there are differences based upon the culture. God said that he has created man into tribes and cultures and societies, because God understands that the differences, the cultural differences that exist in the human race have to be honored and have to be recognized. This is something that the Koran acknowledges. We have to respect these differences and the differences in our interpretation. But this does not mean we are changing the solid and the fundamental principles of the religion. What we are trying to do now is to interpret the Koran and to understand the Islamic law from the point of view of the American society in which we live. So the result will be different, even though the ideology remains the same.

MR. KHATIB: We thank ANN in London for their questions, and we will take a short break.

(Announcements.)

MR. KHATIB: Welcome back. We are talking with Dr. Azizah al-Hibri about women in international law, as well as a look at the Arab and Islamic work. We have a question from a viewer in Germany. Please go ahead.

QUESTION: Hello? Dr. al-Hibri, I have some comments that I would like to make, and I hope you will hear them with tolerance and understanding. First of all, don't you believe -- or don't you think that Muslims who live in the West, whether in Europe or elsewhere, or in the United States, don't you think that they have to climatize themselves and adjust to their societies culturally? Don't you think they have to do that? Because when we use the word "Muslim" we have to redefine it in terms of the culture in which we live. We have to respect the feelings of the people in the societies in which we live, because we cannot isolate ourselves. We cannot isolate our thinking from the thinking of those people in whose midst we live. So I am asking you -- I am asking you to consider the secular thinking and the cultural thinking. And how can we reconcile the Islamic point of view with that?

DR. AL-HIBRI: To answer your question, I am not surprised that you asked me the question from Germany, because such questions come from people that do not understand what is taking place in American society. American society has said -- respects the variations and differences among different groups, whether ethnic or religious differences. And because we do live in such regions we do get together and discuss ways to improve our understanding and to make families and social families better.

There is this culture of dialogue in the United States. America is not a secular state. This is a misnomer, because as a professor of American or international law, American law is based on the fact that there is separation between religion and the state and there is no official religion, that the Founders of the American states respected all religions, and that is why it is today, is that in the past writings when they did mention a god, and they wonder why the American state is secular. This is a mistake. America accepts religions, and we do try to serve the country and prepare also for the 21st century. And all people of other religions agree on that.

MR. KHATIB: We do welcome Halou (ph) from Jordanian TV. Please go ahead.

QUESTION: My first question has something to do with the title of the seminar that took place yesterday, the name of the symposium at the Supreme Court.

This is not the question, the subject of that seminar.

DR. AL-HIBRI: I heard the last question and allow me to answer that portion of your question.

I think the misunderstanding of Islam in Islamic societies have influenced terribly on the status of women and we do find that women in the early days of Islam enjoyed more rights -- yesterday than today. Now the women are isolated from public life, and this has nothing to do with the teachings of Islam.

QUESTION: Turkey is a secular state and it is trying to join the European Union. What will you do about the Muslim woman who joins parliament? Will you apply pressure to make sure that she is not denied her Turkish citizenship?

DR. AL-HIBRI: This is a very important question, and I also heard only the last part of your question, because we have some technical problems. But I think I understood the gist of your question and I will try to answer.

There is now in the United States as a result of new law enacted in Congress, a society that has been established to look into religious freedom throughout the world. It has issued a report recently that covers the different points of view in the Islamic countries. This association has among one of its members an American Muslim woman who expresses her opinion and who so addressed this particular topic. She said that the United States must support the freedom of religion everywhere. This is -- and she said that this is one instance which must be condemned by the United States. I know that at one of the meetings held at the State Department I addressed members of the human rights organizations and also the meeting was attended by American Muslim organizations. And we asked representatives of the State Department to talk to the Turkish government and to communicate to them that this position of denying this woman, this member of parliament who was duly elected, denying her Turkish citizenship is not acceptable. We made our views known, and we asked that our views be conveyed when this representative meets with Turkish officials, because here in the United States we allow everyone to wear what they like to wear an to respect their religion and to practice freely.

QUESTION: My second question has to do with the status of women in Islamic law and Arab law. We have to make a distinction between man-made laws and religious laws. Religious laws do not allow much room for interpretation. And this is at odds with the freedom that is practiced in many countries. Here in Jordan for example women have all the rights in education, in civil society, and in the penal code also, which prefers men to women. Briefly, women in Jordan now have equal rights with the men -- equal political rights as well as other rights. Did you conduct comparative studies to find out the status of women in the laws of the different Arab countries and where the man-made laws interfere with the religious laws?

DR. AL-HIBRI: This is a good question, and I will try to answer it quickly. Yes, indeed we conducted some comparative studies with 13 countries that were mostly Arab countries, including Jordan. And I do understand that the family laws in Jordan are ahead of similar laws in other countries. But I would not dare to say that these rights have already been ensured, fully ensured. But you really touch on a very important point. That is, the democratic process within the country should play a role in these rights and in other social contexts. But this is not our main topic.

Yes, indeed we did conduct comparative studies, and I do not think we can study these laws without first studying the Koran teachings. And I think as one viewer referred to in an earlier question that there is a verse about which there are so many interpretations. That's why we have to understand Koran and not only in terms of man-made laws but also laws stipulated in Koran. And I think we have to also conduct such comparative studies among Islamic nations.

QUESTION: My third and perhaps my last question: globalization is spreading all over the Arab and Islamic world. Do you think this will have an effective on women as it will have an effect on the economy and trade and politics in the different countries?

DR. AL-HIBRI: Yes, I do. It will have an effect on women and on societies at large. But let me focus on women.

When women find that -- when women see what is happening in other countries, they will ask themselves, Why am I being denied these rights? If God has given me these rights, why am I being denied them?

But if the women realized that they are restrained or constraints are being placed on them because of the misinterpretation of some men to the laws of Islam, she will then or women will then call for a reinterpretation and a reconsideration of these laws. But the important thing is that these questions will be handled and the call for change will come from within.

MR. KHATIB: Let's take a call from the Philippines. Hello?

QUESTION: Dr. al-Hibri, I would like to ask you a question about U.S. society, and particularly about U.S. politics. I am not a believer in the conspiracy theory, but are there historic enemies of Islam and of the Arabs who are maybe trying to take advantage of the status of women in the Arab and Islamic countries, and are using that to fight Islam and the Arabs, because this is a sensitive issue in their societies?

And I have another question: What about the freedom of Muslims in the United States, and why is it that the Imams of mosques, the prayer leaders in mosques, why are they asked to -- why are they asked to provide an advanced copy of their Friday sermon to the FBI?

DR. AL-HIBRI: Actually, if this were true, please tell me information about it, because I would then take that to the FBI and object, because this would be illegal. If you have any information about that, please send me the information that you have so I can protect -- because there is freedom guaranteed by the Constitution and no one has the right to have an advanced copy of what the imam is going to say in a mosque. If you do have serious information about this and concrete information, please forward this to me.

But with regard to fighting Islam and Arab countries, I am glad that you raised that subject, so that we can talk about it openly. I can tell you that we cannot understand the United States unless we understand its history. Throughout its history all the ethnic and racial minorities suffered first -- at first from misunderstanding, misperception, and the fact that they were not generally accepted by the majority. The Catholic for example went through that, and other ethnic and religious groups went through that, and now the Muslims and the Arabs. How do we deal with this issue?

You might say or someone might say that this is a result of a conspiracy against the Arabs and the Muslims. But the fact of the matter is that the situation in the United States is different. Everyone in the United States has the right to express himself freely. If the Muslims in the United States believe that what is being said about Islam is wrong, let them speak up. They can go to the voting booth, they can go to television, they can go to the media, to the press. They can go anywhere. Nobody will keep them from talking.

Yesterday I was talking on the same platform as a Supreme Court justice. This is extremely important. It means that our voices can be carried through and can be conveyed to the public.

At yesterday's panel there was an elite, a very select group of politicians and people active in the United States. And many of them came to me afterwards and said, Thank you for clarifying the issues for us. We have to do our part. And let's not look at the issue as a conspiracy but look at it instead as a challenge for us to educate people and to be active in this democracy and to engage people. And hopefully we will be able to improve the situation. We must be fair and say that religious and democratic institutions here in the United States have spoken up and have had their voices heard. We heard that about -- they have been outspoken in Oklahoma City and in the issues that have to do with Disney recently.

And let me also add that about 10 years ago there were no Islamic institutions here in the United States. And only in the last few years we have had political and social clout, and things will get better in the future.

MR. KHATIB: Let's take a phone call from Morocco.

QUESTION: Hello? My name is -- (inaudible) -- Morocco, and I thank the program very much and I think Dr. Azizah for her presentation and her explanation regarding many points.

My question is -- let me say with all due respect you speak from an American point of view, but in the Third World the point of view is clearly a male view and Islam is very clear on that. Islam is very clear on the limits it sets for women. Don't you agree with me that women have their own responsibilities and their duties as dictated by religion?

My second question --

DR. AL-HIBRI: Let me answer the first question. You say that the Koran is very clear. I agree with you that there are certain facts and established principles in the Koran. But to say that the rights of women in the Koran are the same as they are in the personal status laws in the Arab and Islamic countries, I don't agree with that, because there are differences in these personal status laws in any Islamic country. These laws are based on the schools of interpretation that have traditionally and historically been part of that country -- except for Tunisia. In some countries it is the Maliki; in other countries, in Syria for example is it the Hanafi school of interpretation. So we have at least four Sunni different schools of interpretation. How can you say that the Koran is quite clear when there are four traditional schools of interpretation that interpret these matters differently? God gave us the opportunity to interpret the scripture. I also tell you that the personal status laws vary. In the Moroccan law for example, although the overriding principles are those of the Maliki school of interpretation, they can change. They can follow other interpretations or other details that are accepted by other schools.

MR. KHATIB: Thank you, Dr. Azizah al-Hibri. Unfortunately our time is up, and this is a very interesting and complicated issue which we will come back to later. But our time is up. I would thank Dr. al-Hibri, professor at the University of Richmond, and I thank her for her contribution, and I thank all the broadcasters and the callers who participated in this discussion. This is Mohanned Khatib signing off.