"Global Exchange" On Islam In America

(Program guests discuss practice of Islam in US)

Washington -- Muslims in the United States enjoy the same rights as do Jews and Christians to practice their religion says Khaled Saffouri, the director of the recently established Islamic Institute.

"Overall, in the United States, the Constitution of this country guarantees freedoms for all religions, and allows religious individuals to practice freely their beliefs," Saffouri said March 24 on WorldNet's Global Exchange call-in program.

"They practice freely in mosques, in churches, in temples ... gardens, public areas. There is absolutely no constraint to practicing religious beliefs in this country. So generally speaking in the United States I believe there is relatively speaking a better degree of freedom compared to many Muslim countries," he said.

Saffouri, the former deputy director of the American Muslim Council, said he established the Islamic Institute in Washington about six months ago to provide the U.S. Congress with Islam's positions on a variety of issues, like free trade, abortion, and drugs.

Joining Saffouri on the Arabic-English language program was Michael Sanford, who spoke about his personal experience of converting to Islam three years ago and how he practices his Islamic beliefs while working in the private sector.

"I've had two jobs since I've been a Muslim," the 29-year-old Sanford said. "Before I worked at Inline Software I worked at a financial institution. There they gave me a place where I could pray five times a day. I could take time off during el-Eid during Ramadan. I found it very accommodating at the workplace," he said.

Still, despite the freedom to worship and practice Islamic traditions, both said most Americans know very little about Islam and often link the religion with violence because of the negative stereotypes portrayed by "Hollywood."

"So there is a lot of explanation that needs to be done," Saffouri said. Many institutes similar to ours in Washington work in a variety of different fields, and it behooves all Islamic institutions everywhere in the United States to make these points clear to the American public."

Following is the transcript of the Worldnet program:

MR. KHATIB: Viewer, and hello, and welcome, this is Mohanned Khatib, welcoming you to "Global Exchange."

On Saturday, March the 27th, Muslims in America will celebrate the end of the yearly pilgrimage to Mecca, or hajj, with communal prayers at locations around the country.

The prayers are called Eid el-Loda (ph) or the festival of the sacrifice, and they commemorate the prophet Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Ishmael at God's command.

Before we begin our discussion, let's take a brief look at the Islamic community here in the United States.

(Begin videotape.)

ANNOUNCER: There are more than six million Muslims living across the United States today, more than 1,500 mosques, Muslim schools and Islamic centers represent this growing religion. The Islamic Center in Washington, D.C., for example, features one of the oldest mosques in America, and functions as a gathering place for the Muslim community. The center serves three major purposes:

MR. : To be a place of worship for the Muslims. To represent Islam to the non-Muslim. And, three, to be an educational, cultural, social and religious center.

ANNOUNCER: It is here and at other centers throughout the United States that Muslims of many different ethnic backgrounds practice the Islamic tradition.

MR. : I look at Islam not as a radical departure from Christianity, my upbringing, but as an extension going beyond my Christianity.

ANNOUNCER: Feraz Ahmed (ph) is a student whose parents came to the U.S. from Pakistan:

FERAZ AHMED: I've been able to do my prayers and have been able to fast freely in my school and in all my surroundings.

ANNOUNCER: The Islamic faith is the fastest-growing religion in the United States today, and represents an increasingly meaningful part of American culture. (End videotape.)

MR. KHATIB: Today we will talk about the celebration of el-Eid (ph) and the growth of Islam in this country. We are fortunate to have two experts with us today who can help us with this topic. Mr. Khaled Saffouri is the executive director of the Islamic Institute here in Washington. And this institutes educates the Islam community about American social matters and helps explain Islam to the American public and to Congress. Mr. Saffouri is the former deputy direct of the American Muslim Council.

Also joining us today is Mr. Michael Sanford, who is taking time out from his very successful business, Inline Software Corporation, to tell us about his personal experience of accepting Islam. Inline Software built infrastructure and applications for the Internet.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining u today. Also joining us via telephone are viewers from all over the world. And I would like to welcome them to call us with their questions about Islam in the United States and el-Eid (ph). If you are calling with a question in Arabic, please call us collect at 202-205-9066. But if your questions are in English, please call us collect at 202-205-9001. Please remember to call your international operator and indicate that you are asking for a collect call, and we will accept all the charges.

Also joining us are a number of broadcasters standing by with their questions. But first let me ask Mr. Saffouri to tell us a little bit about the Muslim Institute here in Washington. What are its objectives, and what are those communities that it serves?

MR. SAFFOURI: Of course I established this institute as a director of relations with the U.S. Congress for the Muslim community. We were then dealing weekly, and sometimes daily, with the Congress, and we were confronted with questions about and the property rights for example, or Islam's position on late-term abortions. And when we did not have easy access to this information in printed form we would contact numerous imams or religious Muslim callers, leading ones, and we would try within a week to come up with answers.

So we realized that there was an urgent need to work with Congress and to prepare this information in advance so that it would be readily available. So we established this institute six or seven months ago in Washington to provide this service to Congress, and to explain Islam's position on a number of issues. We publish a study every three months, and so far we have published two studies -- one about Islam and free trade, and the second one about Islam and the social issues like abortion and drugs and other similar issues.

Next month we will launch a monthly educational program that will explain Islam's position on a variety of different issues, like religious freedom and other social issues. We think that approximately 50 congressional staffers will be attending these monthly briefings, which have a good chance of expanding even further. Also, eventually we can turn these studies into papers, study papers or briefings that would be distributed to all members of Congress and staffers regularly.

But generally the main objective of the institute is to provide information on Islam to members of Congress. In addition, we are also instrumental in setting up a conservative alliance that will support supports of supporting the family and supporting education and fighting drugs, et cetera.

MR. KHATIB: Khaled, we will come back to discuss these problems in detail or issues in detail, but let me ask Michael about your story of Islam. How did you learn about Islam in the United States? And is your corporation, Inline Software Corporation, does it play any role, any activity in informing the American community about Islam?

MR. SANFORD: Yes. First let me start with a little bit about my background. I was born and raised in Chicago, Illinois. I moved here to the Washington, D.C., area about three and a half years ago, and I accepted Islam about three years ago. When I first came here I was interested in becoming more religious. I looked more into my Christian background, looked into the Judaism faith and Islam. A good friend of mine whom I had been friends with for years told me about Islam, gave me a copy of the Koran, and I started reading the Koran.

About five months into studying Judaism, Christianity and Islam is when I decided to accept Islam. And since then -- (inaudible) -- I have made a lot of Muslim friends in this community. About two years ago we started Inline Software, which builds development tools to build Internet applications, and at Inline Software we do various things with the Muslim community. All the employees at Inline Software are now much more familiar with Islam than they originally were.

MR. KHATIB: With us we have Tele Lamir (ph) from Lebanon. Please go ahead with your questions.

QUESTION: Yes, this is Tele Lamir (ph) from Lebanon. Is a Muslim citizen in the United States considered a full citizen of the United States? Does he enjoy the same rights and assume the same responsibilities? We know that in Islam for example there are certain musts that have to be done, including the prayers at least twice a day, charity to others. How can a Muslim who is devout and sticking to his religion be able to meet those obligations while going to work? And will people allow him to do that in the workplace?

Does the state, and do private enterprises -- my other question: When it comes to announcing the prayers five times a day using minarets -- are they allowed to do that? Do you use loud speakers, as is the case in the Muslim world? So would you please address those questions?

MR. SAFFOURI: Of course let me start with the last question. First of all, no, broadcasting the prayers loud is not accepted, is not allowed. There is one specific area in the state of Michigan close to Detroit -- that is the only area based on my knowledge where they are making the announcement or the call to prayer loud.

As for the obligations in Islam, let me mention the following. As you know, in the United States the political system allows for a separation between church and state, and therefore government institutions deal with the Muslim religion in the same way it deals with other religions, Christianity and Judaism. Therefore a Muslim enjoys the same right as do Jews and Christians to practice their religion. And it is allowed for the Muslim individual to take five or ten minutes from his work in order to pray, as long as that does not interfere with his work. And we have not heard any complaints regarding this, neither from government institutions nor from private sector enterprises and companies. And we have not seen anything against Islam in this case.

Sometimes there are some companies that may be somewhat strict and would have very strict periods set aside for break, and those companies will tell those individuals you have to take your break to do your prayer therefore at that time. That's basically the type of complaint that we get.

As for fasting and its impact on the workplace, I am not aware that companies have any internal regulations dealing with fasting for Muslims. The employee would have to talk to his supervisor or the director of the company, and say that, "I have to break the fast at such a time." Usually it is around 4:45 to 5:00 in the afternoon that the fast is broken here in the United States. There are some companies, even governmental institutions, that allow Moslems to remain working during the lunch break and then take off around 4:30.

As I said earlier, once again, dealing with the issues of fasting, of course those are individual cases that differ from one company to another, and it's up to the employee to address them. And Moslems who fast in this country do that and they work all day. In the United States Congress there are 25 Moslem staffers who are fasting. Overall in the United States the Constitution of this country guarantees freedoms for all religions, and allows religious individuals to practice freely their beliefs. They practice freely in mosques, in churches, in temples, you can do them in the open area, gardens, public areas. There is absolutely no constraint to practicing religious beliefs in this country. So generally speaking in the United States I believe there is relatively speaking a better degree of freedom compared to many Muslim countries. In other words, they enjoy the same rights as others.

MR. KHATIB: Michael, can you tell us a little bit about the private sector? Do you believe that an employee at a company enjoys the freedom to practice his Islamic beliefs without impacting negatively on his day-to-day work?

MR. SANFORD: Yes, absolutely. I've had two jobs since I've been Muslim. Before I worked at Inline Software I worked for a financial institution. There they gave me a place where I could pray five times a day. I could take time off during el-Eid, during Ramadan. I found it very accommodating at the workplace.

Also, it's very free, to add to what Khaled was saying, I have some friends, we prayed outside in public before, and there's been no criticism of that whatsoever. Currently at my workplace now I share an office with somebody, and we're overcrowded right now, so I pray with him in the office, and there is no problem with that. Additionally, we do allow time off not just for Islamic holidays within our workplace, but for other religions as well.

MR. KHATIB: Let's go back once again to Tele Lamir (ph) in Beirut. Please go ahead with your question.

QUESTION: Thank you. There is a question about the role that an American Muslim plays in spreading the concepts of Islam, of Islamic beliefs, as a heavenly or a divine message that calls for affection and love and charity.

MR. SAFFOURI: This is because some people in the West equate Islam with violence. There is no doubt that there are many questions about Islam, and I can say that all of the efforts that are being made in that regard are mostly made by Arab Americans. The fact is that many Westerners develop their idea and their understanding of Islam as a result of Hollywood's portrayal of Islam, linked with violence. But in general the American citizen does not believe there is any relationship between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. The general belief is that the American community is based on Judeo-Christian principles and traditions. So when we explain that Islam is a continuation and an extension of Judaism and Christianity, and that it agrees with Judaism and Christianity on the basic concept of monotheism, many people are surprised to hear that. I had an American visitor who came to my office and we had a cup of coffee, and we had a little pamphlet about Jesus Christ in Islam. And he wanted to borrow this book, and he read it, and he asked -- "I was very surprised to read the information in this pamphlet," and he indicated that this was the first time for him to know that Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is a prophet. But he was very pleased to find out about Islam's appreciation for Jesus Christ and the notion and the belief that he is indeed a prophet.

But still many Americans believe that Islam is -- they do not understand it and they equate it with other religions, like Buddhism and Taoism.

So there is a lot of explanation that needs to be done. Many institutes similar to ours in Washington work in a variety of different fields, and it behooves all Islamic institutions everywhere in the United States to make these points clear to the American public.

QUESTION: And now I go back to another question about the role of Muslim individuals to correct negative stereotypes about Muslims in America. Do you have -- do you think individuals can have a significant role to play to correct these negative stereotypes?

MR. SANFORD: Yes, absolutely. I think there is a lot an individual can do. I think mostly among Americans people are very ignorant of Islam. Their perception, as Khaled was saying, is through Hollywood. Once people start realizing what Islam has to offer, what Khaled was saying, a lot of the tolerance in Islam, the love in Islam, people are very open minded. I think there has been very few people that I personally talked to who have been closed minded about Islam. I have had a lot of people within the workplace and outside the workplace that have asked me for copies of the Koran. Once they realize that Islam is one of three monotheistic religions, and believes in Jesus Christ and Moses, are very open to hear what Islam has to offer.

Individuals can do a lot, providing -- being good role models to our society and to other individuals as well.

MR. KHATIB: We go back once again to Beirut. Please go ahead with further questions.

QUESTION: Thank you. The Vatican II has called for a Moslem-Christian dialogue around the world. And we in the Arab world, this dialogue has been taking place for quite some time between Christianity and Islam. Is there any similar dialogue taking place between Moslems in the United States and other religions, specifically Christianity, and what are the results of that? And, if such dialogue has not taken place, why have Moslems in the United States been so late in taking the initiative to initiate such a dialogue? Because this dialogue could lead to many positive things to address the differences among various religions. We know that there are some basic dogmas based on history, and there are also religious dogma. Moslems have their own specific beliefs -- so do Christians. And we are not talking about getting into the details of dogmas, but we are talking about more historical and social concerns.

MR. SAFFOURI: In fact there is a dialogue taking place between Moslems and Christians and Jews around the world, and I believe there are a number of important centers playing that role, including the one here in Washington. No question that in the past 10 years the Muslim-Christian dialogue was initiated in an effective way. And I would have to give special credit to Abdur Ahmed Hermoudi (ph), who met with the Conference of Catholic Bishops back in 1971 in fact to initiate this. It has become an institutional dialogue of course.

In the past there has always been a dialogue here and there in a variety of states. But in 1991-1992, a more institutionalized dialogue has taken place, and we also have a dialogue with the Council of Middle Eastern Churches that started back in '92, '93, and it has evolved. For example, about two years ago the Conference of Catholic Bishops held a conference and have invited a number of prominent Muslim leaders to attend and to address the issue of clash, for example between Islam and Christianity, taking the problem of East Timor in Indonesia, the Philippines, the Balkan region, you know, Kosovo -- also the status of Christians in Arab Muslim countries. The dialogue was very, very beneficial. A number of points were made by all sides, and each side learned more about the concerns of the other side. And I do not believe that a Catholic living here in Washington has to learn about others. It is up to me to tell him about what's happening to Muslims in the Philippines or a Muslim in India or in the Balkan region. And we have given them examples on Moslems in Belgium where for example for 10 consecutive years Moslems were not allowed to elect their own leadership, and they are not treated the way other religious minorities or treated.

In Germany Islam is not recognized so far as an official religion, and we have participated in a number of conferences in Germany, as well as other countries in Europe, to focus on freedom of religion in Europe. And it became quite obvious to us that there was a lack of religious freedom to a certain degree in those countries. Germany, for example, does not allow for the construction of mosques in residential areas within Germany -- would allow the construction of mosques in commercial zones but not in residential zones. Well, if a Muslim country were to deal this way with the Christian community there would be a major complaint.

Therefore we do recognize that there are many mistakes being committed in the area of religious freedom and the lack of it, and therefore we have to have that dialogue with the other parties. Based on that we could develop a better understanding.

Based on past experiences, the position of a number of churches have improved positively towards Islam, towards Jerusalem, the status of Jerusalem, and the Middle East conflict.

There was a meeting here in Washington recently focused on this issue. It was supported by the Vatican regarding Jerusalem. A number of religious institutions have really improved their position towards Islam, and again towards the status of Jerusalem vis-a-vis the conflict in the Middle East, and we hope that such dialogue needs to be ongoing.

Of course this dialogue aims at getting rid of some of the stereotypes and getting rid of the concept of a clash of civilizations proposed by -- (inaudible) -- for example.

MR. KHATIB: Michael, let me tell you there is a right-wing Christian radical trend in the United States that opposes such dialogue. Do you believe it would be possible to establish such a dialogue and bring those people to the table and discuss with them Islam and to inform them better about the religion?

MR. SANFORD: I think generally most Americans are open to hear about Islam. Most Americans want to hear what Islam has to offer, and have a better dialogue for better relationships. There are certain people with any ideology that are very stern in their ways, very radical in their thoughts, if you will, and those people tend to be much more close minded. I think generally the most effective way to address those people is deal with the society as a whole, generally when you have a society that is accepting certain thoughts or ideas that alienate a group of people, that tend to be foreign from that line of thinking.

MR. KHATIB: We have a little bit more time to take questions from Tele Lamir in Beirut. Please go ahead.

QUESTION: During this secularization time the world has become a global village. Islam is the religion of tolerance, just as Christianity is the religion of love. Does the Muslim in America have any impact on the dialogue that is taking place between the rich countries of the North and the poor countries of the South? And, finally, I would like to extend our thanks to this program for spotlighting this issue.

MR. SAFFOURI: There is no doubt that decision-makers in this country have started to feel that the Islamic community in the United States is beginning to organize itself and beginning to make its impact felt. They are beginning to participate in a dialogue on a number of issues of conflict in the world. The U.S. State Department has started a monthly seminar wherein a dialogue takes place. This seminar is attended by at least 25 Islamic religious leaders, as well as their counterpart Christians.

Last time the subject of dialogue was with Turkey, and the secular government in Turkey. The government there is playing a role fighting the role of religion in the country and trying to take a stand against the attempts being made by religious leaders in Turkey to curtail the role of women in society and in education, et cetera.

I am providing this just as an example. The dialogue is also addressing the issue of Jerusalem and the issue of religious minorities all over the world and the view of the U.S. government on how these religious minorities are treated everywhere in the world. So the Islamic community here is also playing a role in trying to impact decisions, important decisions, policy decisions. So the U.S. president for example has good friendly relationships with two important Islamic religious leaders, one of whom, Rafik Shoudri (ph), held a birthday party for the first lady. So these important personal relationships help explain to the U.S. president many, many points that were not known to him before -- also to the first lady. So these relationships that are -- did not exist before, and they exist now.

The same is true of -- between the relationships of the Islamic American community and members of Congress and their staffers. Many members of Congress have Muslim assistants who provide the members of Congress with their views regularly. They provide them opinions about the Palestinian state and issues related to that matter. And for the first time two members of Congress, Dingell from the State of Michigan, who represents many Muslims in his district, and Tom Campbell also -- both of them came out in favor of establishing a Palestinian state.

There is no doubt then -- we noticed this in the last few years -- that there is a qualitative change in the relationship between the Islamic community and decision-makers here in this country.

MR. KHATIB: We thank our colleagues at Tele Lamir (ph), and we will continue our dialogue with you. Please stay with us.

(Announcements.)

MR. KHATIB: Welcome again, and we resume our discussion of the -- (inaudible) -- with our guest, Khaled Saffouri and Michael Sanford. And now we go to ANN in London. Please go ahead with your question. We will attempt to contact ANN again in London, but let's go back to the studio. Michael, please tell us about some of the activities that you do in your company in order to spread a better understanding of Islam among the community. There are a number of companies that use the Internet nowadays in order to provide information to the American people. There are a number of Moslem sites on the Internet. What do you do in trying to exploit this new technology to explain Islam to the American public.

MR. SANFORD: First, there are two things that we do, one is internal to our company, and secondly external to our company. Internally we have had many discussions with our employees about the principles of Islam. We've talked about the five pillars of Islam, the basic doctrine of Islam -- that is, the teaching of tolerance. And because of that we have had many people ask us for copies of the Koran, ask us questions relating to sharia. And actually interestingly enough not just about Islam, but going back to certain political issues that are involved in the world and certain conflicts. We've had many of our employees that are much more educated about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for example, what's happening in Iraq, what-not.

Secondly, externally, we go out to various churches and we talk about Islam, and so that is basically what we try to do within our community. Currently we are working with the Internet technology to take advantage of that to help spread the word of Islam throughout the community.

MR. KHATIB: We have a phone call from -- (inaudible). Please go ahead with our question from Germany. (Technical difficulties.) It seems that we are having communication problems today. Osama in Germany, are you with us? We go back to our studio once again. Khaled, there are a number of Muslim organizations in the United States active in fighting stereotype images of Islam and Muslims, and these activities have been increasing in the last few years. For example, there have been complaints about certain movies produced by Hollywood, portraying negatively Islam, I think the last one being "The Siege." A lot of activities have taken place by the Moslem community to oppose the release of such a movie. Do you believe that the community has done enough to correct these stereotypical images and get rid of those?

MR. SAFFOURI: No question that the community has played a major role in fighting stereotypings. And in spite of that, every once in a while a movie is produced by the American movie industry that is antagonistic to Muslim. However, let me remind our viewers and listeners that if it weren't for the activities of the Muslim community in the United States such movies would be numbered in the tens today. The last one had to do with the Air Force One, of the plane. There was an article in the Washington Post criticizing the fact that the terrorists were Russians, and the Russians and the Mexicans do not have their own community organizations to protest the use of Russians as villains in the movies, while Muslims and Arabs have organized and have that.

In spite of the fact that I differ in my view with the writer of the article, but I am opposed to any type of stereotyping regarding any ethnic or religious group. That should not take place, whether it's against Arabs or Mexicans or anybody else. So why does Hollywood try to always develop such stereotypical images? I don't understand.

However, in a way the article is showing that the Muslim community has been successful in stopping a lot of that stereotypical activity and sensitized Hollywood regarding this issue. I have participated about three years ago with Warner Brothers to reach an agreement -- we're talking about Warner Brothers, the film production company in Hollywood -- that any time they are discussing producing a movie where there may be a mention to Islam, and there could be any negative images of Islam, that they will consult with us and get our advice prior to the production and establish a dialogue before the filming of the movie in order to provide our input. In other words, there is some responsiveness by the production companies, but we have not reached the level yet.

MR. KHATIB: Let us go now to ANN in London. Please go ahead.

QUESTION: Mr. Khaled, when was Islam recognized as a religion in the United States, and how many members are there in this Muslim community in the United States? And how many members go to perform the hajj annually?

MR. SAFFOURI: It seems to me that Islam became recognized here in this country early this century.

The United States does not have laws that legislate religion. For example, the Church of Scientology, which has problems in almost all the countries of Europe, has been recognized here. I don't know the specific dates, but it seems to me that it happened early in this century, around 1910 or 1920. And this is because the U.S. Constitution gives all religious groups the right to establish their religion and to pray.

We tried to get these figures about numbers of people who go to the hajj from the Saudi Arabian Embassy here, but we have not been able to do so. I think that in the United States those who have the financial means probably do go to perform the pilgrimage, but the conditions of life and the high cost makes that difficult. But it seems to me I think personally -- I think it's somewhere between 4,000 and 8,000. Other estimates say 12,000. And this is out of five to seven million -- the total number of Muslims here in the United States is between five and seven million.

QUESTION: Another question to Khaled. What is the position of the American public opinion regarding slaughtering the lamb?

MR. SAFFOURI: So far I have not heard of any complaint on this issue, because slaughtering animals or killing animals in the United States is somewhat ugly. For example, they hit the head of a cow using a large instrument -- they use electricity to shock them to death. You know, the American citizen, average citizen is not opposed to slaughtering the animals. Jews have also their own ways of dealing with killing animals. I have not heard of any complaints, even organizations that protect the rights of animals. Of course there are some health issues involved.

MR. KHATIB: Our viewer, Osama Houri (ph) from Germany, please go ahead.

QUESTION: Good evening. First I would like to say hello to you and wish you a wonderful holiday. My question is the following: What is the impact of the visit of the first lady, Hillary Clinton, to Middle Eastern countries, especially during this period of -- (inaudible) -- ? And are the American media covering that visit appropriately, and in order to cover the results of that? And I hope that the foreign as well as the Arab media cover such a visit, because it is an attempt to bring about Moslems and people from around the world. Thank you very much.

MR. SAFFOURI: Of course the first lady is on a visit to Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco and North Africa. What is the importance of such visit? We know that the first lady has many activities with the Muslim community here in the United States. There is no doubt that she has played a very good role in bringing Islam closer to the average American citizen, that Islam is a good religion, it is a positive religion, it is a religion of tolerance.

The problem here is that the media in the United States are not covering that. I believe that ABC two days ago, they broadcast the news for like four, five seconds, just covering the visit. The media in the United States do not give either the president or the first lady enough time for coverage, especially when it has to do with the Muslim community. When they travel they are not covered as much.

I believe that her visit is going to give a more positive view of the United States to people in the region, because the media there are going to cover her visit.

About two days ago the Washington Times published pictures of Hillary Clinton with the Moslem women she was embracing, and fortunately there weren't enough. Washington Times is not the number one newspaper in the United States. I don't believe the Washington Post published a similar picture. But I think such photographs show that there is a closeness and friendship between communities -- and gets rid of the negative images and feelings that some citizens may have towards Islam.

MR. KHATIB: We go once again to London with ANN. Please go ahead.

QUESTION: Mr. Michael, how old were you when you converted to Islam? And when you talk about Islam, what are the points that require more effort to explain to the Western world?

MR. SANFORD: Generally people have different perceptions of Islam, and people have various levels of knowledge. I accepted Islam about three years ago, when I was 26 years old. I am currently 29 years old now.

Generally the points that I bring up the most is, one, it's a monotheist religion -- we believe in Jesus, and we believe in Moses, and we believe in the Torah and the Gospels -- that they've been changed, but we believe that those have been revealed to the prophets prior. So generally people are very interested to hear that. Many people don't know that. As Khaled said earlier, many people view Islam as something -- as a religion that's a sect of Buddhism or Hinduism or something like this. Generally people are -- is what I found very fascinating about Islam is the level of tolerance in Islam. One of the things that I found -- that I enjoyed when I read the Koran for the first time was how logical the doctrine is and how much it made sense, and how much it appealed to the human nature. And when people find out about that they're very interested to hear more about Islam. Generally people do have the typical stereotypes of association violence with Islam because of the media, but that is starting to change as groups become more organized, people find out more about Islam.

MR. KHATIB: There are undoubtedly some points that are more difficult to explain about Islam when one tries to explain to the Western society in general. For example, multiple marriages, polygamy for example -- is it difficult to explain to Western societies?

MR. SAFFOURI: I think this is very difficult. The whole question of women or the status of women in Islam is very difficult to explain to the American community. This has been my experience at least, and I don't know what Michael's experience has been. But the question of polygamy is always raised, and how one answers it is difficult.

One must remember that the American citizen is the product of an industrial revolution that began in Europe in the past century, and so it is difficult for the citizen to understand the Islamic interpretation of this issue. There is always an understanding here in the West that the relationship between men and women is a competitive one. In the Islamic point of view, men and women supplement and complement each other. Each one of them plays a role in the family and in society. That is the one explanation in general that can be understood, and it's easier to explain to Western society. We try to explain that based upon the division of roles, this division of views is due to some basic differences.

MR. KHATIB: Let us take another question from Arab Network News.

QUESTION: My question is to Michael. What is the response of people with you? And do people -- are they being convinced, or are there people who are facing also racial -- I mean, they have racial discrimination and religious intolerance?

MR. SANFORD: Yes. Originally when I told people that I had accepted Islam, there was a lot of different reactions. I had someone ask me if -- someone jokingly -- if I was going to blow up a federal building -- not that person is actually a Muslim also.

Also, there is also a lot of questions going back to what we were saying before with women. It's actually very interesting. There's a lot of ignorance not only about Islam, but about what people's own beliefs in the Judeo-Christian traditions. Generally when you tell people that in the Bible there's polygamy -- Abraham and David and Solomon -- additionally, when you look at the Bible and find out what it has to say about women's rights, generally they're very surprised and happy to hear what the Koran has to offer.

So I find that people's perspective of Islam has changed very much with just very little information. And once people become more knowledgeable they change their perspective drastically -- and not just on the religious context, but additional on the political context as well.

MR. KHATIB: (?) In reality the second part of the question is very important, and that is there are some who become Moslems due to pressures. For example, we saw that there are a large percentage of converts to Islam within prisons. Do Americans find refuge in Islam as a result of such pressures?

MR. SAFFOURI: I'll of course give Michael a chance to respond, but let me base respond on my experience. I think the American who chooses Islam knows that he has chosen a difficult path. We have said that in this country there is freedom, but even the American public, with all the freedoms that are enjoyed, there is still racism throughout the land. If someone is called "Mohammed" he will find it more difficult to find a job, more difficult than someone whose name is "Michael." That is the reality of it. There is also discrimination against some communities, including against certain ethnic groups, Mexicans for example who are Christians. So being a Muslim is assuming an additional burden. He would have to give much more in order to receive the same as others do.

Will he get any benefits? There are no material benefits that he would obtain from converting.

As for the conversion in prisons, it's the result of the following fact: the Moslems in American prisons try to focus on ethics. Many are in prisons due to the use of drugs -- abuse of drugs, dealing with drugs -- and then they find a religion that bans not only drugs but also alcohol -- calls to be always -- accept chastity. And that is the reason why prisoners in jails may find refuge in that. In their homes they were not educated as such -- the father may have been an alcoholic -- they did not have a healthy atmosphere at home, and they see that Islam is focusing a lot on the family and the close ties among the family, and gives them a feeling of comfort.

MR. KHATIB: Let us take a question from Dr. Velushi (ph) from London. Please go ahead.

QUESTION: I thank you very much for this valuable program. I wanted to ask what are impediments against the spread of Islam in the United States? Here in the West we find that extremists or radical sects that associate themselves with Islam are impediments. Does this problem exist in the United States, and what is the best way to spread Islam in the United States?

MR. KHATIB: Thank you. Let's start with Michael.

MR. SANFORD: Yes, there are certain organizations, and particular individuals, who are very much Islam. Generally, as we said before, the best way to promote Islam is through knowledge and information through technologies like the Internet, through television programs like this, through radio programs. And so that's generally the best way I have found and our community has found to spreading Islam.

MR. KHATIB: Khaled, what are the most prominent impediments to spread the word of Islam?

MR. SAFFOURI: Mr. Velushi (ph) has asked about specific entities. There are some sects or denominations that claim to represent Islam and their ideas and views are different and alien from those of mainstream Islam. In the last two years these organizations have started to have a presence -- a major presence -- and even here in Washington. Some of these entities are supported by Zionist organizations and entities unfortunately. So far all that they have done is attacked major Islamic organizations in this area. We don't know what is their background, but what we have heard is that they have originated in Cyprus. But this is something that also exists in the Arab Islamic countries. Undoubtedly that is true. There is also a presence for other entities or organizations that have come from Lebanon, but their presence is still very, very limited. Even those entities that I referred to earlier, or I've named have a very limited presence here in the United States, and they started having a presence or making their presence felt only about two years ago.

Some Americans who convert to Islam with the assistance of these organizations are the ones who provide the basis for promoting and strengthening these very strange and misleading notions and ideas, but they constitute a very small minority of the Muslim community.

MR. KHATIB: We have approximately three or four minutes remaining in our program. Let's take one last question.

QUESTION: Mr. Khaled, you referred a little while ago to Mr. Clinton's visit to North Africa. A few weeks ago the Iranian President Khatemi visited the Pope. How do you see the future for the dialogue between Muslims and Christians and for an openness between these religions?

MR. SAFFOURI: I believe to a great extent this is going to depend on efforts by Muslim countries to promote the Muslim-Christian dialogue. I believe there are a number of problems around the world that could be resolved through greater mutual understanding.

As we have said earlier, we have to recognize that there are bad practices in Arab and Muslim countries against minorities, and sometimes against Muslims themselves. There are practices that are tyrannical, and we have to recognize that. And that is why we always say we have to get rid of the fact that we are always right and others commit mistakes. We have to get rid of that and recognize that we commit mistakes. Mistakes are committed by all sides, and we have to do one, two, three in order to solve these problems.

Dialogue is extremely important because it is an essential part to deal with this. For example, what happened against Muslims in Bosnia -- I personally have spent three, four years focusing on the Bosnia issue, and the orthodox Serbian church had a very racial understanding base of Islam, and didn't -- and Islam had nothing to do with imperialism and colonialism on the part of Islam in that region. So we have to explain that.

There are mistakes committed by European countries -- Europeans countries have divided the Arab nations, for example, and created them. So dialogue is very important and it should be based on mutual understanding.

MR. KHATIB: Khaled, in one minute, before we go to Michael, what can Muslim and Arab countries provide to assist the Muslim community in the United States in doing a better job fulfilling their mission?

MR. SAFFOURI: Of course the fact that Islam is based in the Arab and Muslim world, the studies that are produced there, many of them are not here. All literary products -- books produced, published, are not always available here. Whenever they could contribute and send to us, especially in English, contribute to us those studies that are well written, we need that material.

On the other hand, they could support us also by coordinating with the Muslim and Arab organizations. For example, the Arab American Institute, which plays a very important role -- it is headed by Jim Zogby, always trying to create a rapprochement between Arabs and Muslims and Americans. By inviting delegations from the United States to the Arab world.

MR. KHATIB: We have a question from el Mohammed in London. Please go ahead -- quickly please go ahead.

QUESTION: I would like to talk to ANN because it is a station broadcasting out of Britain and is quite aware of the status of the condition of Muslims in Europe. Why doesn't ANN provide half an hour or one hour programs as a dialogue to discuss this so as Muslims in Europe we can discuss it?

MR. KHATIB: Of course we will allow ANN to respond to this. However, a last comment from Michael. What can the Arab and Muslim community provide to the Muslim community here, such as yourself, in order to assist you in better explaining Islam to the rest of the American people?

MR. SANFORD: Yes, I would add to what Khaled said -- information, literature in English to help the grass-roots organizations here in America, religious and political. Additionally, information that compares Islam versus the Western context, and the true Islamic traditions with women, and also comparing various sects like the Nation of Islam, and dismissing that away from Islam. Things like that would go a tremendous way to helping.

MR. KHATIB: Viewers, unfortunately we have only a few moments before our time is up, and I would like to thank our two guests, Khaled Saffouri and Michael Sanford, for joining us in our discussion.

I would also like to thank all of our broadcasters who called in with their questions. And we'll see you again next week. So long.