Topic: Religious Freedom and Tolerance
Host: Shameem Rassan (Through Interpreter)
Guests: Dr. Jeremy Gunn, Office of International Religious Freedom, U.S. State Department
Hesham Nasser Reda, Washington Director, Muslim Public Affairs Council (Through Interpreter)

Worldnet "Global Exchange"
United States Information Agency
Television and Film Service of Washington, D.C.

Washington -- A law passed by Congress last year mandated the creation of a new office at the U.S. State Department to focus on issues of religious freedom. The law -- the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998 -- also called for establishing a new commission that will provide advice to the President.

During a March 3 Global Exchange call-in program, Dr. Jeremy Gunn of the Office of International Religious Freedom, and Hesham Nasser Reda, director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in Washington, discussed the objectives of their respective organizations, and their efforts to begin a "dialogue" on issues of mutual concern.

According to Gunn, who received a Ph.D in religious studies from Harvard University, the most important goal of his office is to "urge" countries, governments and people around the world to comply with "international standards" that protect religious freedom.

By international standards Gunn said he meant the conventions and standards that most countries have adopted, such as Article 18 of the International Covenant for Civil and Political Rights.

"The United States now wants to promote those international standards and to encourage other governments to comply with those standards, just as the United States itself needs to ensure its own better compliance with those standards within the United States," Gunn said.

Gunn said the Office of International Religious Freedom (OIRF) will try to accomplish its mission by issuing reports to "describe what our perception is of the status of religious freedom in countries, and also with negotiation with foreign governments."

For his part, Mr. Reda said the aim of the Muslim Public Affairs Council is to "achieve a correct understanding of Islam in U.S. society with regard to individuals, government organizations and public institutions, and the media."

Towards that end, the Council and the OIRF have begun talks on religious freedom and tolerance issues.

"We welcome the open-minded position at the U.S. State Department," Reda said "and at their initiative we started an ongoing dialogue with the Muslim community on issues that concern Muslims throughout the world, especially issues of religious freedom."

During the hour-long televised broadcast, the two experts answered questions from viewers in Beirut, London, Jordan, Germany, the Netherlands and Italy.

The questions touched on issues related to the perception and treatment of Muslims in the United States, the situation of Muslim Albanians in Kosovo, and differences in the application of Islamic principles in Arab and Muslim countries.

Other issues Gunn and Reda discussed were the problems of stereotyping, and the difficulties that religious minorities face in the United States, the Middle East, Northern Ireland and India.

(Begin transcript)

MS. RASSAN: Dear viewers, this is Shameem Rassan welcoming you to a new edition of "Global Exchange."

There were many victims throughout history and tremendous loss for religious tolerance, persecution and war. As we look around the world today, religious misunderstanding is at the root of many of our political and military conflicts. The problem may originate with negative stereotyping, having preconceived and wrong ideas about the world.

(Begin videotape)

ANNOUNCER: Scenes like this on the evening news give many Americans a distorted view of the Arab world. Some view their Muslim neighbors with mistrust, wrongly associating Islam with violence. It's a view that Nahad Awad (ph) is actively trying to change. Awad (ph) is the executive director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, an organization that tries to correct misconceptions about the Muslim community.

MR. AWAD: Most of this comes out of ignorance, not malice, and that is why we try to treat ignorance with education. We will try to raise people's awareness.

ANNOUNCER: Awad (ph) feels more Americans need to see the human face of ordinary Muslims -- the doctors, farmers and families that help contribute to society. While he says the American news media is improving its coverage, the same cannot be said for the movie industry. The recent Hollywood release, "The Siege," brought a wave of criticism from the Muslim community who say Hollywood unfairly depicts Arabs as terrorists.

MR. AWAD: Unfortunately sometimes stereotypes become policy. So people will be stopped in airports for no reason except because of their looks, their dress, their ethnicity.

ANNOUNCER: Everyone he says needs to be judged individually, not categorized because of religion. The 1995 bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City by an American extremist proves that terrorism is hardly a Muslim commodity.

(End videotape.)

MS. RASSAN: We have two experts with us today to discuss the important topic of tolerance and international religious freedom in the world. Both have long been involved in the study of religion and relations between the Muslim Middle East and the Christian West.

Dr. Jeremy Gunn is currently assigned to the State Department's new Office of International Religious Freedom. Dr. Gunn received his Ph.D. in religion from Harvard University, and has also served as an executive fellow at the United States Institute of Peace.

Also joining our discussion is Hesham Nasser Reda, the Washington director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council. Mr. Reda has been addressing issues of Islam, Middle East politics and the relationship with the West in lectures, interviews and articles for more than 20 years.

Gentlemen, I want to welcome you both to "Global Exchange."

I would also like to welcome our viewers around the world, and invite you to call us with any questions you may have on issues relating to religious freedom. If you are calling with a question in Arabic, please call us collect at 202-205-9001. If you are calling with a question in English, you may call us at the following number: 202-205-9020. These calls are free, so be sure to tell the international operator that you are making a collect call.

We also have with a number of broadcasters standing by with their questions. But let me first start with our two guests. First I would like to ask the first question to Dr. Gunn, and I would like to ask him to explain to us the Office of International Religious Freedom. When was it established, and what are its goals?

DR. GUNN: The United States Congress passed a law in late 1998, called the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998. That law created a new office within the State Department to deal with issues of religious freedom. The statute also created a new commission that will provide advice to the president as well.

So the office now has been operating for a few months, and we are still hiring staff and trying to prepare to issue our report, which will be coming out later this year.

MS. RASSAN: The second part of the question -- would you please tell us what are the most important objectives of this office?

DR. GUNN: There are few goals that our office has. Certainly the most important issue for us is the promotion of religious freedom throughout the world. So we are interested in this issue both in European countries, as well as countries with predominantly Muslim populations. But what we are urging other countries and governments and people to do is to comply with international standards for the protection of religious freedom.

The way that we try to accomplish this is through the reports that we issue that will describe what our perception is of the status of religious freedom in the countries, and also with negotiation with foreign governments.

MS. RASSAN: Now let's go to Mr. Reda. And I would ask you what are the most important activities of your office?

MR. REDA: The aim of the Council is to achieve a correct understanding of Islam in the U.S. society with regard to individuals, as well as government organizations and public institutions, and the media. Islam of course plays a part throughout U.S. society in all areas of activity, and this has to come about even more so so that we can serve U.S. society and the Muslim community, and we have to connect our services to both, so that Muslims become part of the society.

MS. RASSAN: If we are talking about the Office of International Religious Freedom, as Dr. Gunn mentioned, and how it works with countries and with your Council also, to what extent is there cooperation between your Council and the State Department's office, especially when there are fears or when there is an accusation addressed against someone? So how can there be some kind of common ground between the two institutions?

MR. REDA: There is ongoing dialogue between our Council and the new office in the State Department, and other institutions as well. This dialogue takes place in an open atmosphere.

But we cannot say that everything is going on smoothly and perfectly. We welcome the open-minded position at the U.S. State Department, and at their initiative we started a continuing dialogue, an ongoing dialogue with the Muslim community on issues that concern Muslims throughout the world, especially issues of religious freedom.

MS. RASSAN: Dear viewers, as I mentioned earlier at the beginning our program, there are a number of broadcasters who are standing by to address questions to our two guests. From Beirut we have Telelamir (ph). Please go ahead.

QUESTION: People are still -- this leads to the fact that we are facing a religious intellectual crisis. My question is that this religious intellectual (fright ?) that is not consistent with the reality of the developments that are taking place throughout the world. So my question to Dr. Gunn is: If you were responsible for religious programming on television, what would be the programs that you would broadcast to develop the education of people who would be your viewers so that there would be an end to religious intolerance?

DR. GUNN: That's a very good question, and I think perhaps it's appropriate to say in the beginning that for the most part within the United States the U.S. government does not control the media, and does not attempt to present information that convinces people of form of religion or another religion. So it is an open country in that particular way.

But I think that one of the issues in the United States that has been of particular concern to me has been a lack of understanding of Islam and countries with a majority Muslim population. So I think that's a serious concern. Too often, as the introduction to this program showed, the perception in the United States is the issue of terrorism, which is an unfair portrayal of the issues that are taking place in the Middle East. It nevertheless is something that Americans see and observe and are frightened by. And so I think that one thing the United States government needs to do is to do what it can to promote understanding, dialogue and communication on issues. And this is one of the things that our office has attempted to do from the beginning, is try to improve understanding with Muslim communities in the United States and have better relations with countries with majority Muslim populations abroad.

MS. RASSAN: We resume our questions from Telelamir (ph) in Beirut.

QUESTION: Mr. Reda, since you are a Muslim, I would like to ask you do you find there is a difference between religious freedom or philosophical intellectual freedom and the freedom that one exercises in everyday life?

MR. REDA: I don't know exactly what you mean by a difference between religious freedom and intellectual philosophical political freedom. I believe that the freedom to worship and the freedom of thought are connected. As a Muslim, I believe in this freedom. The Koran tells us to practice what we believe. The Koran also tells us that we cannot be forced to believe in anything in particular. The goal of Islamic action, or calling people to Islam, is to convey to them the message of Islam, and not to force them to believe in it. As long as we communicate this message to them, then they can decide on their own whether to become Muslims or not, because in the final analysis they are accountable to God.

Accordingly, the practices that we see all over the world when there is persecution, that is persecution is something that we address at our office.

MS. RASSAN: We are still with Telelamir (ph) in Beirut.

QUESTION: A question. I would like to explain an idea. In the Arab East, and specifically in Lebanon, we have freedom of conscience, and people can change their sect depending upon their belief. In the remaining countries, however, the religion of the state is Islam. Is this fair, do you think?

MS. RASSAN: Mr. Reda, do you think that this is fair?

MR. REDA: I believe that the situation is not as bad as has been described. There are different degrees, of course, throughout the Arab world, and the freedom that is available in Lebanon is not available perhaps elsewhere. But the majority in a given country can rule itself according to the values that it finds fit, as long as this majority does not persecute a particular group or deny it its rights to practice its religion.

Therefore we may find some discrepancies among the Arab and Muslim countries, even though that claim they rule in accordance with religious principles. The application of Islamic rules and principles vary from one country to the other. And the applications of Islamic principles also vary. So no one can say the government in Iran is the same as that in Saudi Arabia, or the government in Egypt, where the Constitution says that Islam is the religion of tee state.

MS. RASSAN: Again Telelamir (ph), please go ahead. Thank you. If there are any further questions you would like to direct to our guest?

QUESTION: No.

MS. RASSAN: Our greetings to all those who work at Telelamir (ph) in Beirut. We in Washington now move to London. We have Elias Hafoosh (ph), the journalist from the Magella (ph). Please go ahead. Elias Hafoosh (ph) is with us in London.

QUESTION: Yes, I work with the Magella (ph). May I ask a question? This question is to Mr. Gunn. I know when the American Congress, when it decides on a bill or a new law to make changes internally. What I cannot understand is the discrepancy between the American law when it deals with freedoms inside -- religious freedoms inside the society, that deals with many new immigrants. However, when it deals with religious freedoms overseas, isn't there some contradiction here between domestically or internationally? I would like to pose that question, yes.

DR. GUNN: I think that's an interesting question. I think it's important to understand how religion works in the United States to begin with, and then we can talk about for a moment the law abroad.

In the United States there is very little regulation of religion. The United States Constitution provides that the government should not discriminate on the basis of religion, that there should be no law to create an official religion of the state, and that people should be able to practice. So in many ways the United States Constitution and the laws in the United States prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion.

In U.S. history we have been a country of religious minorities. There is no religious majority in the United States. Although it is certainly true that the majority of U.S. citizens are Christians, no particular sect within Christianity dominates, and so there is a degree of openness to that.

I think that one of the problems that has been in the United States -- and I think this is probably true for other countries as well -- is that religious minorities frequently are discriminated against or perceived as unusual, new or different. So often there is a degree of hostility within local communities for what is perceived as new religions. And I think that the laws of the United States during the last 30 years have attempted to improve that, and I think there is a substantial degree in the improvement in religious liberty in the United States.

That said, there is still a great deal of progress that needs to be made. Before I worked for the State Department I was an attorney in private practice, and most of the lawsuits that I dealt with on issues of religious freedom were lawsuits against the government, where I thought the government had taken inappropriate steps. So in the United States it is a constant dialogue, it is a continuing discussion of how we can better improve religious liberty. And there is still a long ways to go, but I think that a substantial amount of progress has been made.

With respect to religious freedom abroad, I think that this is an issue that has not been taken seriously enough by either the United States or other countries in the world. During the last 10 years there has been an increasing interest, not only in the U.S. but in other countries too, to look at the question of religious freedom, religious tolerance. Obviously in many countries of the world there are religions that are actively discriminated against by states. Their religions are often perceived -- or small minorities are subject to hostilities from people in the community.

What the United States is now interested in doing is promoting the international standards for religious liberty. By international standards I mean those conventions and agreements that most countries of the world have adopted. And in such instruments as the International Covenant for Civil and Political Rights, Article 18 of that refers to religious freedom, as well as there are provisions that prevent discrimination. The United States now wants to promote those international standards and to encourage other governments to comply with those standards, just as the United States itself needs to ensure its own better compliance with those standards within the United States.

MS. RASSAN: We continue now with Mr. Rahib (ph) of the Magella (ph) in London.

QUESTION: The second point is the nature of the religious freedoms office at the State Department. Shouldn't this office practice its work independently of the rest of the government, since we see that there are certain differences in policy toward people for example in Kosovo, and some regrading for example the minorities in southern Turkey? Now, shouldn't this office then work freely and independently of the State Department?

DR. GUNN: That is an extremely good question, and it's a difficult question. In the State Department typically the United States government wants to be able to speak with one voice. So there is a very strong desire to coordinate policy statements and policy positions among the various offices within the State Department.

We certainly see our mission both within the Office of International Religious Freedom and within the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, to try to speak as honestly and as candidly as we can about the situation in the world. Given the way that the government is established, it is necessary that we speak through the State Department, but that we work as diligently as we can to try to promote the international standards within the State Department, and have the State Department enunciate those standards worldwide.

MS. RASSAN: We are still with London and the Magella (ph). Mr. Rahib (ph), please go ahead.

QUESTION: Mr. Hesham Reda, we heard in the last week that your organization, your group, has issued a statement in coordination with five other organizations. Can you let us know what is happening among the Islamic groups in the U.S., especially the report that indicates that the U.S. president is going to play a role?

MR. REDA: I believe that it is not a matter of differences between these groups, these organizations. This is something that we co-exist with. It is not a problem that is very important to us. The main organizations in the Muslim community have issued a common statement whereby a representative of the State Department was present, which indicates that 80 percent of the Muslims in this country have received this statement. Those communities that are facing extremism -- this is truly a very dangerous situation, considering that Islam is not well understood in this country, and there are many insensitivities against Muslims. We try to remove those and let the American people understand the true nature of Islam and the true nature of Muslims, and that they have no objective except the welfare of this country. There are statements that these types of statements that subject the community to danger. However, these are the main points.

In regard to the president interjecting himself in this, we have no information there. We have expressed our opinion, and we have explained the issue to the Muslim community and to the rest of society. We leave that up to them to work for the welfare of all.

MS. RASSAN: We continue our program, the "Global Exchange" from Washington, and I have Mr. Rahib (ph) with me, of the Magella (ph) of London.

QUESTION: What I meant, Mr. Hesham, are you content with the relationship between the Muslim groups in the United States, especially that those organizations that are headed by people of Arab origin? Do you think that their work is presenting Islam in good light that would reflect Islam?

MR. REDA: First of all, with regard to the relationship between these different organizations, I can say that the relationships are fine, and that they are continuing to improve. We find in fact that there is a certain maturity taking place within the American community inside the Arab-Muslim community. This makes it possible for us to coordinate joint actions, and that was not possible before.

But with regard to the abilities of these organizations to offer a good picture of Islam, there is first of all -- and we must recognize that there is a wrong view about Islam which we are trying to correct. Second, we have limited capabilities. Third, there are also the fact that the Muslim community is a relatively new community that is trying to set roots in this society. It is a community that has many problems. And our hope therefore is with the new generation of people who will be able to deal with the American society more efficiently and more effectively. There is much to be done in the future, and we are looking forward with much hope to doing that.

MS. RASSAN: Thank you. Mr. Rahib (ph) in London, are you still with us, and do you have any more questions?

Now I would like to thank our colleagues at El Magella (ph) in London. And now we go to Jordan and Jordanian Television. Mr. -- (inaudible) -- our colleague, welcome. Please go ahead.

You are watching "Global Exchange" from Washington with two guests, Dr. Gunn and Mr. Hesham Reda. We are talking about religious tolerance and problems that have to do with the notion of religion and religious freedom. We are waiting for Mr. Bashar (ph) from Jordanian Television. Please go ahead with your question.

QUESTION: This is Bashar Arob (ph) from Jordanian Television, where our slogan is peace and friendliness and affection. These are our values, and in this spirit we would like to mention our late beloved king, may God bless him and grant him salvation. He has tried to implant in us the spirit of religious freedom for a better future.

Let me ask you the following questions. To what extent have the lovers of peace and people who work for religious tolerance, to what extent have they succeeded in making it possible for people in general to convey the principles of religious freedom intellectually and economically to fight against economic discrimination and politically to fight against the repression in Kosovo, and the Albanians of Kosovo who are still waiting for a firm position in their favor?

MS. RASSAN: Please go ahead. We'll start with Dr. Gunn.

DR. GUNN: That is certainly a difficult question. I think that in the United States we can approach this in two ways, once again talking about the way that this issue has developed in the United States, as well as what is happening abroad.

If we take the case of Kosovo, or even the Balkans more generally, we see very serious problems that have tended to break down along religious lines. So even outside of the Kosovo area within Bosnia, where there are people who are of essentially similar ethnic origin, but are divided along religious lines, we can see the possibility of extraordinary conflict and loss of life that can come from intolerance to others. In many cases that comes from a perceived history and perceived differences in history and culture.

With respect to Kosovo, it is certainly a problem where there is again the problem of conflict between the Serbians and perceptions of the Serbian Orthodox Church, and the Albanians who mostly are Muslims. Certainly what the United States wishes to do is try to resolve conflicts as best they can. But also it is important that religious leaders in those countries themselves, and the people in those countries, attempt to show tolerance towards each other.

MS. RASSAN: We continue, dear viewers, this edition of "Global Exchange," during which we are discussing religious tolerance and religious freedom, and we will be back in a few moments.

(Announcements.)

MS. RASSAN: Welcome back. We are talking today about international religious freedom with our two guests, Dr. Jeremy Gunn and Mr. Hesham Nasser Reda. Now we continue our discussion of a very important subject, religious practice and the freedom to practice.

Now we got to Arab News Network, ANN, in London. Welcome.

QUESTION: It is best to focus assuring the religious freedom to minorities in the United States, and that is better than focusing on minorities outside the United States. I am not talking here about religious practice, but I am talking about removing negative religious stereotypes of Muslims in the United States, and that translates itself to suspicion about all Muslims after any terrorist act, as was the case in Oklahoma. Can you comment please?

DR. GUNN: I think that it is very important that the United States internally take as many positive steps as it can to improve relations among religions. I think it is fair to say that the religion of Islam has been the victim of unfortunate stereotypes in the United States. This is also unfortunately the case with many of the religious groups in the United States in its history. Certainly at times the Catholic Church in the United States was a minority that was discriminated against. Jews in the United States certainly have suffered from persecution and negative stereotypes. This is also true not only for religions, but racial groups have been discriminated against in the United States. There is nothing to be proud of in that.

What there is, I think, reason for pride in the United States is particularly during the last 30 to 40 years there have been substantial steps that have been taken to improve the situation on the basis of either the racial discrimination or religious discrimination. I personally believe that one of the most serious issues right now in the United States in the area of religious discrimination relates to Muslims. I think that for the most part Muslims in the United States are free to practice their religion, and that is certainly good. There are also problems with the stereotyping that need to be ameliorated. But I think that it is probably not entirely fair to suggest that the United States should be concerned only with discrimination in the United States -- that certainly should be the principal focus of the United States. But we ought to be concerned -- all countries should be concerned with improving religious freedom everywhere, just as Muslims outside the United States would want Muslims to be able to practice freely in the United States. So would Christians in the United States want Christians to be able to practice their religion freely in other countries of the world.

The important thing, I believe, is that we look to international standards and do the best -- that all countries do the best that they can to ensure that there is not discrimination on the basis of religion or beliefs.

MS. RASSAN: We have a question from one of our viewers, Mr. -- (inaudible) -- in Germany. Go ahead.

QUESTION: There is Europe, and in London specifically, some who call for Islam who are actually very extremist -- they believe in killing and Abuhanza (ph), and mostly those who are -- other people who are similar to Abuhanza (ph) in the U.S.

My other question is that foreign tourists have been killed by the Hutus in Uganda. Do you believe that the European reaction will be more severe since they are of the Hutus, since the Hutus are the ones who committed this?

MR. REDA: I do not know whether the second part of the question is directed towards me, however, sometimes there is some exaggeration in focusing on the Islamic side of the Islamic identity for all of these terrorist acts, crimes. This is something that we are affected by and we carry out a dialogue and a discussion with the media here about the definition of the terrorist identity. If he is for example a Christian in Northern Ireland or a Jew like Farouk (ph) in Palestine, who killed 29 of those praying -- so we don't hear about a Jewish terrorist or a Christian terrorist. If he -- for example, a Christian terrorist who is for the freedom or the independence. This is something that will continue to be in our dialogue and dealt with in the media. However, there is a lot to be desired and corrected in this regard.

In regard to the first question asked, to whether people have this thinking in the U.S., of course no doubt some will think that way and some will actually carry out such acts. I have no specific people in mind that will carry out such acts or think about carrying out such acts, acts of this kind.

The second part of the issue is that the Muslim leadership -- there are none among them who call for such actions, and we will continue to call for the combating terrorism and correcting the picture of Islam.

MS. RASSAN: And, Mr. Gunn, would you like to answer the second part of this question?

DR. GUNN: With respect to the perception of Europeans to the killing, I really don't have a sense of that.

I would like to address the first part of the question, if I could. I think that we all understand that part of the attraction and power of religion is that people believe that they have come to understand the truth, that they have come to understand God, they have come to understand the reason that we are here on Earth. And that understanding can be sincere, devout, well intentioned. But we also know that within every religion there are people who take that very strong belief and turn that into violence against people who do not share that belief. Christianity certainly has had examples of that. One can even think back a few hundred years to the time of the Crusades, where Christians believing that they were pursuing truth and they were pursuing their religion, ended up by massacring a people who did not share their beliefs. That is condemnable when any religion does that, or when any person committing atrocities does so in the name of religion.

There certainly are people in the world who under the name of Islam commit atrocities against innocent people, and I think that that kind of action should be condemned. Similarly, other religions, when they promote or take steps to commit atrocities similarly should be condemned.

The point I think here is that the evil is the terrorism; the evil is not the religion. And it is very important to keep those two things separate.

MS. RASSAN: And we are still with Arab News Network in London. Please go ahead.

QUESTION: My question is also for Dr. Gunn. There is no doubt that the Islamic world has had a bad experience with the U.S. State Department with regard to the annual report issued by the State Department on human rights and human rights violations. The report usually mentions violations of human rights in Islamic countries, but does not mention violations of human rights in Israel. Do you do that, and do you also mention in the current report anything about Israel's effort to "Judaize" Jerusalem?

DR. GUNN: I have not read the report on Israel, so I can't speak to that. But let me address I think what the sense of the question is. I think that as is understandable, each country in the world attempts to obviously advance its own interests in the world and speak to its interests. The question of Israel has of course been a long-standing concern in the Muslim world and in the United States. I think that it is fair to say that in many instances governments in the world, and I include the United States, act inconsistently and say things on one occasion that ends up being inconsistent with what they do on other occasions.

I can assure you that our office, now that it is operating, is going to attempt to be as candid as we can on questions of this sort. I think that it is certainly appropriate and fair when there is the perception of inconsistency on the part of the United States to point that out and to raise that concern.

MS. RASSAN: And we go back once again to Jordanian Television in Amman. We have with us our colleague, Bashar Jahrar (ph).

QUESTION: Thank you. Let me start with where we left off. To what extent has there been emphasis on the cultural factor in the matter of the dialogue on religion freedom and intolerance in that regard?

MR. REDA: I believe that we have not achieved enough progress in this regard. We need to have more dialogue among the religions, first of all. And, second, there needs to be an educational effort to convey to people the real religious principles of tolerance and co-existence, and the freedom to believe what one wants to believe.

But, in addition, I believe there are also other values that are associated with the different regimes and the different makeups of society. We cannot ignore for example the economic factor. If there are economic discrepancies within a given society, and especially if these economic discrepancies have a religious overtone, with one religious group being more advanced and having more economic privileges than the other, this will lead to some friction that cannot be avoided without addressing the economic system. So how can we address also religious freedom if there is no political freedom? The two must be practiced together, because in a system that ensures the religious as well as political freedom, people can co-exist and accept each other, and accept the notion that their society can be united with different values and different beliefs.

MS. RASSAN: We have an intervention from a viewer in the Netherlands. Please go ahead. Go ahead, Brother Velah (ph).

QUESTION: I would like to extend my greetings to those present in this program. Islam is a religion of tolerance, culturally and with all those who live in other countries also. The teachings of this religion should be practiced without the intolerant influences, however. The question is I notice that in many Western media organizations deal unfairly with Islam. When they deal for example with the Irish issue, you do not hear about Catholics who are biased or intolerant. However, when you her about Islam you hear about Islamic terrorists, when they speak of Hezbollah, for example, when those people are actually fighting for their land.

The second question is directed to the guest who represents the U.S. government. I heard that the Arab-Muslim community in the U.S. is treated very poorly in the U.S. airports. This affects the whole community in the U.S. How do you answer to that?

The third question: Are there any facilities and assistance given to the Arab-Muslim community here to build the mosques and schools in the U.S.?

MR. REDA: I think the first question may be addressed to Dr. Gunn, but the third question I can address. I can say that there are no restrictions on the construction of mosques and Islamic schools in this country, or on the curricula they offer their students. These freedoms are available and guaranteed in the United States.

When an Islamic association tries to get a building permit, and when the area where the mosque is supposed to be built have a majority of people who are intolerant or who have misconceptions about Islam, then there might be difficulties in the construction of this mosque. But, thank God, we are making progress in this area, and I can say that in most cases we do not encounter such problems.

But the problem that Muslims find in airports is a difficult one, and there has been a lot of controversy over this matter, and we have had many contacts with the U.S. government on this issue, so that we can remove some of these obstacles that people face. The situation may have improved somewhat, but the problems still continue. and we will continue two work on it. And we continue to appeal to the U.S. government to change the system so that the Arab and Islamic community does not have to face this kind of discrimination.

MS. RASSAN: Dr. Gunn?

DR. GUNN: Yes, let me address each of the three questions briefly. The first one, in terms of identification of terrorists by the name of the religion, I think it is fair to say that in the United States there is frequently a link between Islam and terrorism, and that is true, and that is not deniable.

I think that it is probably not entirely appropriate to say that there is not a linkage of other religious groups to terrorism. I think that in the United States for coverage of Northern Ireland the issue of Catholic versus Protestant is very widely perceived, and it is understood that there are essentially Catholic terrorists and Protestant terrorists in Northern Ireland. We hope that most of that is gone. But that is also perceived in the United States.

Recently with problems that have existed in India, for example, it is frequently identified as Hindus killing Christians, so again that is addressed and that issue is raised.

Nevertheless, I think that it is appropriate to say that there needs to be more balance in the treatment of that.

On the second issue that was raised on the issue of treatment of Muslims in airports, I must say that I am coming from the State Department and not other parts of the government that are responsible for that issue, and that is a topic that is more appropriately addressed to the Justice Department. Nevertheless, I personally believe that that is a serious concern, and it is something that in our round table discussions that we have just begun at the State Department, that Mr. Reda is a part of, that that is one of the topics that we would like to be addressing shortly, and I think that is one of very serious concern, and I hope that there can be improvement on that particular issue.

With regard to the third question, I think that the question originally asked about financial support for mosques and schools in the United States. Part of the United States system does not allow for direct financial support to religious institutions, so there is no money given to Christian churches, Jewish synagogues or Muslim mosques. So that just is not done by the government.

I think that the issue Mr. Reda raised is an important issue, and I think one of the ongoing concerns in the United States with religious freedom, and that is the ability of churches, mosques and synagogues to be able to get zoning permits to build their buildings. Very frequently in the cases of which I am aware there is local opposition to any kind of new institution that is going to be built in a neighborhood that will increase traffic, and so there are many Christian churches that make the same objection. Nevertheless, I think that the point is fair to the extent that a religion is perceived as being different or new they are more likely to face local opposition, and the situation frankly needs to be improved in the United States.

MS. RASSAN: We continue with our colleagues at ANN in London. Go ahead.

QUESTION: My question is also to Dr. Gunn. Is it the responsibility of the office which you head to recommend a certain punishment or penalty for those parties that practice discrimination against minorities in the United States?

DR. GUNN: If I understood the question about punishment of minorities in the United States, our office has no responsibility for that issue. The statute that we operate under does provide that there can be the imposition of sanctions for governments that engage in a persistent practice of -- persistent and ongoing severe violation of religious rights. So there are provisions within the statute that refer to that. The decision whether sanctions should be imposed or not is ultimately a decision that would be made by the president of the United States. Our office would be in the role of making recommendations.

I think that it is perhaps most important to understand the statute not as one that is going to be imposing sanctions, though that might happen, but one that attempts to put the issue of religion freedom squarely on the agenda so that it is considered in the United States and abroad.

MS. RASSAN: We still have a few more minutes in this show. We would like to listen to Mr. Samir Hanna (ph) in Italy, one of our viewers. Go ahead.

QUESTION: Hello. I am a Lebanese who watches Dubai stations and all others. What I would like to say is that when Islam goes to Italy or to the U.S. or to any other nation in the world, they ask for their rights. If a Christian goes to Saudi Arabia, he has no right, as the Christian in Egypt is persecuted, although they were there Islam. I am not biased, but we always hear -- We want, we want, we want -- and for example when we hear the sheikh who are speaking in the mosques and riling up the listeners, there is a kind of provocation. Thank you.

MR. REDA: I do not know whether I understood the question toward the end especially. I do not think that Islam is a religion of provocation against anyone. As we said in the past, there are those of course amongst us who might act to provoke others -- they are in the wrong. We have to teach and educate ourselves in this field in order to transcend these issues. Of course it is the right of a Muslim to ask for his right, and it is also the right of the Christian to do so.

There is a difference of course between what can be practiced in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and the U.S. Of course they do not practice all their rights. There are certain exaggerations of course as to what occurs, especially in regard to what happened in Egypt recently. The picture was exaggerated extremely. There was of course bad practices committed by the police; however, there was some exaggeration. The issue is not of course to discriminate against those, however that was the action of the police.

MS. RASSAN: I am sorry, there is only but a few moments left. I would like to thank our two experts again, and Mr. Heshem Reda for participating with us today. And we would like also to thank all our colleagues in the media for participating in this "Global Exchange." Thank you.