Condoleezza Rice Discusses the War on Terrorism and US-Russian Relations

Dr. Condoleezza Rice: Good morning.

Mr. Russert: Happy birthday.

Dr. Rice: Thank you.

Mr. Russert: How goes the hunt for Osama bin Laden?

Dr. Rice: We are continuing to look for Osama bin Laden, and we are going to find him. The key here is to strip away his protection, and in loosening the grip of the Taliban and beginning to make it unsafe for him to be in large parts of the country, we believe that we are tightening the net. We are going to do this. And I must say that this is the most important element of this war. It is absolutely the case that we wanted to loosen the grip of the Taliban, but that was a means to an end. Al-Qaeda has got to be broken up. Its leadership has got to be found. And Osama bin Laden has got to be found.

Mr. Russert: Are you convinced he's still in Afghanistan?

Dr. Rice: We have no reason to believe that he is not in Afghanistan.

Mr. Russert: In the city of Kunar, it appears that there are a lot of foreigners who will refuse to surrender. Some of the Taliban nationals from Afghanistan have given up, but people from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, other Arab countries, are staying and fighting. Will they be destroyed?

Dr. Rice: Well, one of the very clear elements of this war is that there are a lot of foreign fighters on Afghanistan's soil. The Taliban allowed this country, in a sense, to be occupied by Arab fighters who are there to protect these terrorists and who are there to protect this wretched regime, but they are holed up. They are surrounded, and eventually, they will be destroyed.

Mr. Russert: In Kandahar, the stronghold of the Taliban, tribal warlords in that region are now negotiating with the Taliban, saying, You know, you have a couple of days to figure out what you want to do with your lives. If you don't surrender, you, in fact, may be victim of the United States military campaign and the Northern Alliance. Will we give the Taliban in Kandahar a few days to sort things out?

Dr. Rice: We are determined to destroy the infrastructure of the Taliban, to make certain that its grip is loosened. We are eventually going to get the Taliban in Kandahar. Now, the discussions that are going on between various tribal leaders, Pashtun tribal leaders and the Taliban, we obviously are not party to. But the important thing here is that until the Taliban's grip is loosened on the entire country, it's going to be difficult to do what we need to do, and what we need to do is to root out the al-Qaeda terrorists. We need to make certain that Afghanistan cannot be a base for terrorist opportunities again, and that's our focus. 

Mr. Russert: Kabul--we had asked the Northern Alliance not to go into the city proper. They did it. They're in there in force. They have set up a Defense Ministry, Interior Ministry. Are we disappointed that the Northern Alliance has, in effect, taken over Kabul? 

Dr. Rice: Well, we're getting very good soundings from the Northern Alliance that they understand their responsibility to be a part of a broad-based government. This is not a country that is going to be ruled by ethnic populations that are 25 percent, 30 percent of the country at best. It is going to have to be broad-based in order for Afghanistan to be stable. The Northern Alliance, it appears, in the early stages, did send security elements and forces into Kabul because they believed that the situation was deteriorating into chaos, as the Taliban were retreating. We understand that they've kept the bulk of their forces outside the city. And we have been very clear that we do not expect there to be a kind of pre-emptive government set up in Kabul, that this is for the United Nations and for Afghanistan's neighbors and near neighbors to work with all Afghan elements, so that we can have a stable government there. We believe that the Northern Alliance understands that and that they're going to respect that. 

Mr. Russert: So the Northern Alliance may have done us all a favor by stabilizing Kabul? 

Dr. Rice: Well, it's clear that in those early stages, the Taliban, as they were retreating, were wreaking havoc in the city, and some of the elements of what the Northern Alliance did probably was proper. 

Mr. Russert: Let me show you someone who returned to Kabul yesterday after being gone for five years. He is the former president, Burhanuddin Rabbani. There he is there. What role do you think he should play in a post-Taliban Afghanistan?

Dr. Rice: The nature of this government is going to be up to the Afghan people. We have been in touch with Rabbani, we've been in touch with elements of the Northern Alliance. We've been in touch with a number of Pashtun leaders. And everybody, I think, understands that the future of Afghanistan has to be one in which all elements are represented. I really do believe that this time the Afghan people and their putative leaders want a chance to rebuild Afghanistan in a way that it will be stable and ultimately prosperous and can rejoin the international community. This has been a terrible period under the Taliban, and it seems that a number of elements understand that Afghanistan may have a new chance and that they really want to be a part of that new chance.

Mr. Russert: Rabbani, as you well know, supported Saddam Hussein in the Persian Gulf War. Will he be reminded about that?

Dr. Rice: Rabbani is a complicated figure, obviously.

Mr. Russert: You don't see Rabbani being president of the whole country?

Dr. Rice:This is really a matter for the Afghan people, for the U.N., and for others to decide. We are not trying in the United States to impose a solution on Afghanistan. 

Mr. Russert: Let me show you someone else. There's been a lot of speculation about Mohammed Zahir Shah, the 87-year-old king who's been living in Italy in exile. Would you think it in the interest of Afghanistan for the king to return?

Dr. Rice: Again, Tim, I think we have to be respectful of a process here that is going to take place. The U.N. has appointed an experienced diplomat in Mr. Brahimi to bring these parties together. We, Afghanistan's neighbors, and near neighbors, the Russians, the international community are all supportive of this process. I think we have to let it unfold without trying to choose a particular figure around whom the Afghans can rally. The king clearly will also probably have a role in this, but it really is something that has to unfold in the process. I don't think it's something that the United States wants to try and prejudge.

Mr. Russert: The secretary of State, Colin Powell, said a few weeks back that there are some elements in the Taliban--they've been described as elements--who would be part of the new government. You can't cleanse the country of all Taliban. Is that still our position?

Dr. Rice: We can certainly cleanse the country of Taliban leadership and its hard-core supporters. Anyone who has supported this regime in the way that the leadership and their hard-core fighters have, it's hard to imagine them being part of any--follow one government. Obviously, when you have large parts of the country that have been under Taliban control, there may be people who have dealt with the Taliban, but it's very hard to imagine a Taliban element to this government. I just can't--I don't think the words moderate and Taliban go in the same sentence, frankly.

Mr. Russert: How long do you think the Taliban will survive? Will they last through the winter or do you see this ending in a matter of days or weeks?

Dr. Rice: Well, this war is really a war to end terrorism on Afghanistan's soil. It is to wrap up the al-Qaeda network, it's to make certain that they can't do the kind of harm that they have done to the United States and multiple other places. This may take a while. We need to keep our focus on the big picture here. It is really wonderful that the Northern Alliance has had the successes that it's had. It's wonderful that the strategy has worked so well in loosening the grip of the Taliban. But we need not to lose focus on the fact that there is still a lot of work to do. There are still pockets of resistance. And most importantly, until we've met the president's objectives of rooting out the Taliban--rooting out al-Qaeda, of loosening the Taliban's grip so that we can do that and of, ultimately, making sure that Afghanistan cannot be used in this way again, our mission will not be complete.

Mr. Russert: The Taliban treatment of women, reprehensible, although the Northern Alliance does not have a stellar record in dealing with women either. Will we insist that ranking women be part of any new Afghanistan government?

Dr. Rice: The United States is not going to try to choose a government for Afghanistan, but we will stand by our principles. And our principles are that all Afghans deserve a far better life than they've had under the Taliban, and our principles include that women should have rights and women should have a rightful role in the life of the country. We have to remember that Afghanistan is a place where women were educated, where girls were educated, where lots of women were doctors and teachers. This is not a new concept for Afghanistan, that women can be functioning in an important part of a modern society. It's a value that we hold dear, and it's a value that we would try to use our influence to have take hold, but certainly we cannot choose the members of the next Afghan government.

Mr. Russert: Recent data suggests that the Northern Alliance sold more opium on the open market than even the Taliban. Will any new Afghanistan government be told by the United States, You're out of the drug business

Dr. Rice: Absolutely. Any new government wherever has to understand that the running of drugs, that corruption of that kind is not a part of being a modern society. And given that a lot of these drugs end up in Europe and even in the United States, this would be a high security priority for the United States. But we clearly have a long way to go here. We have to establish a government, we have to get stability in Afghanistan, we have to root out al-Qaeda. The end state for Afghanistan will undoubtedly be one that is better for the Afghan people than the Taliban has been.

Mr. Russert: If we are, indeed, successful in Afghanistan in eliminating Osama bin Laden and rooting out al-Qaeda, will the war on terrorism then turn to Saddam Hussein in Iraq?

Dr. Rice: The president has made very clear that this is a broad war on terrorism; that you cannot be supportive of al-Qaeda and continue to harbor other terrorists. We're sending that message very clearly. Now, as to Iraq, we didn't need September 11 to tell us that Saddam Hussein is a very dangerous man. We didn't need September 11 to tell us that he's trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction. There could be only one reason that he has not wanted U.N. inspectors in Iraq, and that's so that he can build weapons of mass destruction. We know that he tried twice before to acquire nuclear weapons. In 1981, when the Israelis pre-empted at Osyroc, he was trying to develop a nuclear weapon. In 1991, when our forces arrived in Iraq, they saw that, again, he was trying to acquire nuclear weapons. He is a very dangerous man. We have to deal with him on his own terms. We didn't need September 11 to tell us that he's a threat to American security.

Mr. Russert: Would the world be safer if he was eliminated?

Dr. Rice: The world would clearly be better and the Iraqi people would be better off if Saddam Hussein were not in power in Iraq. I don't think there's any doubt about that.

Mr. Russert: Czechoslovakian government has told us that they have evidence that Iraqi agents met with one of the hijackers who flew the plane into the World Trade Center. Do you agree with that assessment?

Dr. Rice: In evaluating the report, certainly one would have to suspect that there's no reason to believe Saddam Hussein wouldn't do something exactly of that kind; that he would not be supportive of terrorists is hard to imagine. But this particular report I don't want to comment on because I don't want to get into intelligence information, but I will say again, we do not need the events of September 11 to tell us that this is a very dangerous man who is a threat to his own people, a threat to the region and a threat to us because he is determined to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

Mr. Russert: We've heard so much about the coalition against the war on terrorism. Do you believe that Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan would support us going after Saddam Hussein?

Dr. Rice: Well, I think it's a little early to start talking about the next phases of this war because, as I said, Tim, we have a lot of work yet to do in the phase that we're in. But it is no mystery or surprise to the people and the governments of Saudi Arabia, of Jordan, of Egypt that Saddam Hussein is a problem. This is a man, after all, who, just a year ago, refused to recognize, again, the right of Kuwait to exist. He is someone who threatened the kingdom of Saudi Arabia before. So they would not be surprised to know that he's a threat either.

Mr. Russert: George W. Bush was the first American president to use the word Palestine last week. What is Palestine?

Dr. Rice: Palestine is simply a term for a state that might exist for the Palestinian people. What the president was doing was to lay out a vision of where we might be, should we be able to encourage the parties to get back into a process that leads to a permanent peace in the Middle East. And in that vision, he does see an Israeli state, our good friend Israel, that is secure, where it is fully recognized and accepted that Israel has the right to exist within secure borders, where terrorism has been wiped out as a factor in the Middle East, and where the Palestinian people have a state in which they can determine their own fate and their own future.

Mr. Russert: Do you think you'll see a Palestinian state in your lifetime?

Dr. Rice: I certainly hope that I will see a Middle East in my lifetime in which the Palestinian people and the Israeli people, as well as other neighbors of Israel, live in peace, live in an environment in which prosperity and economic development are what we would be sitting here talking about: trade, the ability to have better lives for people. I think that that's a vision that we all have to hope can come in the lifetime, and I will tell you, I think it's a vision that will be within reach.

Mr. Russert: We have asked the Russians, under leadership of President Putin, to modify the ABM, Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, so we can have testing for our missile defense system. President Putin thus far has said no. Will we go forward unilaterally with testing and withdraw from the ABM Treaty?

Dr. Rice: Well, in fact, the nature of the conversation between President Putin and President Bush was something like the following. The Russians continue to believe that the ABM Treaty is an element of the new security framework. President Bush continues to believe that the ABM Treaty--we need to move beyond it; that it is both a relic of the Cold War and, therefore, codifying a relationship that no longer exists, and that it is an impediment to a robust testing and development program.